STEVE GOLDSTEIN: ASU was one of the schools to sign onto the lawsuit challenging the since-discarded [U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement] plan for international students. I spoke with ASU President Michael Crow earlier to get his perspective on a number of coronavirus-related issues, including what the university's multiple campuses may look like for the fall semester. We began the conversation, though, with his reaction to the ICE proposal and why he thought the idea was even floated.
MICHAEL CROW: You know, I don't even understand what was the motivation behind this other than attempting to bully the universities into certain kinds of behavior. And so international students, of which there's a million in the United States, are a key thing about building connections to the United States. They're key to the building and expansion and creating new job opportunities for Americans in the United States. This has been one of the most successful export markets that the U.S. has ever been a part of. It's a $40 to $50 billion a year export market just for the cost of going to college alone, much less what these students buy when they're in the United States. I mean, it was just poorly thought through, wrong-headed, and I'm glad that they have decided to pull back.
GOLDSTEIN: So considering it was proposed once, are you worried it could be proposed again in the next few months before the administration goes on to whatever's next?
CROW: Well, you know, the way that some of these things are being proposed is not thoughtfully. And so if there's some concerns, let's hear those. And so we joined amicus brief status with the Harvard-MIT lawsuit. We joined with 20 other West Coast universities in an actual legal action. You have hundreds of colleges that are responding, hundreds of corporations. The corporations are all opposed to this also because they know this is a way to expand the economy, to grow the economy, to create American jobs by bringing in fresh talent. It doesn't take away from the United States. It is essential to our economic success. And so I hope that they don't propose poorly thought out rules going forward, that if they've got concerns, that they're more thoughtful.
GOLDSTEIN: Obviously, we know that a pandemic has upended everything and continues to to some extent. Are you hoping to have some students, some classes on campus? Is this going to be a hybrid? What's the ideal plan for you coming up, and how soon can it be implemented?
CROW: Well, the most important thing, Steve, to think about relative to us is that we're one of most technologically advanced, if not the most technologically advanced university on the planet. And so we're 24/7. Our research groups are going full bore. We're producing new COVID testing and sampling techniques. We're working on every problem you can possibly imagine. And now we have three ways to enhance teaching and learning: We have full immersion on campus, we have synchronous immersion — full immersion via advanced technologies on campus — and we have a digital immersion, which is learning online. What we realized for the fall is that if we can implement social distancing, masking and hyper-sanitation, and if the pandemic reduces its rate of expansion, we'll be fine with opening and having a new normal in terms of our environment. If the if the virus continues to accelerate in its distribution throughout the population, then we may have to go back to our synchronous mode and our online mode, but we're not going to make that call for another week and a half or so.
GOLDSTEIN: Higher ed, obviously dramatically different from K-12. There have been concerns at the K-12 level about learning from home and how effective that is. Are there certain things you've already learned as far as innovation goes that you tried at the end of the spring semester, that you will bring to the fall semester to make the online learning, the at-home learning per se even more effective?
CROW: Oh, absolutely. We're a better institution than we were. And by the way, we run 11 K-12 schools, also 11 charter schools as public schools in cooperation with public school districts. The key to everything here is for people to get past this notion that this is a blip. This isn't a blip. This is a moment. And when you have a moment, you have to rise to the moment. You have to do everything you possibly can. So if you think it's not as good, then you have to make it better. And that's what we've done. If you think that online is, is more limited than something else, then you have to make it better. What you have to do on all fronts is innovate, adapt, advance, constantly advance towards new things. And one thing that we're hoping that we can do is that some of the lessons that we've learned, we're making available to the rest of the K-12 community so that we can work on this together. We think there's a way, no matter what happens — come what may, as they say — that educational attainment can be continued regardless of the virus circumstances going forward. Harder. Easier. Yes. But nonetheless, we think that we can still make substantial advances.
GOLDSTEIN: Realizing this pandemic has been a nightmare for many people, for the economy, for the system as it was, are you someone who feels like this has truly offered an opportunity? I know you're not excited about the pandemic, but the fact that this is forcing innovation — does that excite you on some level, knowing that you can make some changes that may have, have some staying power?
CROW: The pandemic is a terrible thing and lots of lives and families are being disrupted. And like other national crises like this — wars and depressions and pandemics — you have to look at these as moments in time to reassess. We now understand, you know, some of the social justice inequities that are acutely aware to all of us more than we did before. We now understand that we're not well-prepared for globalization-related, that's what this pandemic is related to — billions and billions of people living in a very complicated planet. We're not as ready for these disruptions and we're not as resilient as we ought to be in all of our sectors. And so this is a moment to take a serious self-evaluation exam and to then realize what we can do, what we can't do, and to start working on improvements. So I'm a big believer that you have to take advantage of this moment to learn the hard lessons and to move forward.
GOLDSTEIN: The universities are economic drivers, obviously, in this state. And certainly other states have that as well with their universities. So what sort of opportunities does this offer in terms of the economic impact of Arizona State University, other state universities, if you want to comment on that as well? I presume you talk with Gov. Ducey. I assume you've talked to other business leaders. Are there certain things you're excited about in that realm?
CROW: Well, we're, we're excited, but also there's some harsh realities. There was a Wall Street Journal chart that I can get over to you, just the other day that indicated that since January 1st of 2020, we've seen a dramatic decrease in jobs in the workforce for people without a high school diploma and a very dramatic decrease of jobs for people with a high school diploma only. And it's not that those aren't smart and capable people — it's that they're not able to adjust as rapidly to the kinds of changes that the new economy is bringing. And now the COVID-driven economic shifts have made that even more acute. It is a dramatic thing that the new economy is going to require everyone to graduate from high school at some point in their life. Everyone to go continue to learn past high school — military training, technical training, community college, university, what have you — just to keep up. And so the new economy is offering massive new opportunities for economic success and economic growth, but it requires that the workforce adjust to the nature of the new economy. The pandemic has now made this acutely, acutely visible to all of us. And so my hope is that people can see that the university can be one part of an equation to upgrade the adaptability index and upgrade the overall ability of people to be resilient to whatever comes their way, at least relative to the economy. And educational attainment and learning enhancement is a key part of that. Not the only part, but a key part.
GOLDSTEIN: Dr. Michael Crow is president of Arizona State University. Dr. Crow, always appreciate your time. Thanks.
CROW: Thanks, Steve. Talk to you later.