When hearing the name Bruce Springsteen, some people might imagine the cover of "Born in the USA." Springsteen facing an American flag, plain white t-shirt and ball cap in his pocket.
Other people might be imagining "Darkness on the Edge of Town" Springsteen — messy hair, unzipped jacket and leaning against the wall. These are iconic looks from an iconic rock star — and if you love Springsteen, you remember where you were when you heard the songs from those records for the first time. Some might even remember holding the cover art in your hands while you listened to the record.
These images of Springsteen and what he represents can get seared in one's mind. He is as much of an idea as he is a person. But what is that idea?
Jesse Lou Lawson and Holly Casio would argue that it can be whatever you need it to be. Lawson is a radio producer and a drag artist who performs under the name “Butch Springsteen,” and Casio is a queer zine and comic artist who’s written extensively about their love of Bruce Springsteen.
They’ve just released a multi-part podcast called “Because the Boss Belongs to Us,” and in it, they’re making the case that Bruce Springsteen should be added to the pantheon of queer icons.
Full conversation
SAM DINGMAN: I would love to start by having you both tell us, and Jesse, Let's start with you and then we'll go to Holly. What are the Bruce lyrics that you first heard that made you think, this person is singing to me?
JESSE LOU LAWSON: When I was in the middle of kind of coming out, I would say. So like my friends and family and workplace. It was also a time where I was really into karaoke. So much so that my friends bought us a karaoke machine as a present to my flat. So we did lots and lots of karaoke.
And me and my flatmate at the time we were perfecting our performance of “Thunder Road” together. I love it musically because there's no choruses and no verses. It's just one story all the way through, a very, very beautiful story. And then it ends with this line. That is, “it's a town full of losers, and I'm pulling out of here to win.”
And then there's this amazing saxophone from Clarence Clemons, and that is like for a little while when I was in this bit of my life where I was coming out, every time I sang that on karaoke, I would cry. So that is like a very specific line for me that I really love.
DINGMAN: Holly, what about you?
HOLLY CASIO: Oh, the first song that, like I remember having this like, immediate, gut wrenching physical reaction to was “Dancing in the Dark.” I'd always heard the song was like a just a kind of general pop song. And I was sitting in my bedroom making a mixtape for someone I was in love with. I was, like, 13, 14. I was queer, but I wasn't out yet.
And the lyrics of that song just made me realize, oh my God, this is about me and my life. Like the lyrics, “I wanna change my clothes, my hair, my face.” That is such like a queer like moment of like, oh, no one understands me.
But the, there's a particular line where he says, “there's something happening somewhere, baby, I just know that there is.” and this feeling I had of, like, complete isolation when you're like a queer teenager in a small town, when the Internet doesn't really exist yet and you don't really have connection to queer people and queer communities, that was such a physical tangible line for me. It didn't feel like just a throwaway pop song anymore. It felt like this is a queer anthem.
DINGMAN: Yeah, well, one of the things that you do so well in the show and that you've both just done here, is talk about how meaningful that moment is when you discover an artist who feels like they're singing directly to you. But in my experience, sometimes that feeling can be accompanied by a sense of disappointment when you realize other people love them also, you know, like you want that feeling to be just for you.
But my sense of both of you is that it was exhilarating not just to find this sense of connection with Bruce, but to discover that other queer people in particular, were having similar reactions. Is that fair to say?
LAWSON: Yeah, I think we've spoken about this a lot. There's a specific way that queer people do being a fan and also more than that, that queer people do like fashion or nightlife, like lots of different things where I think one of the core things in that is trying to find and build community.
There's something that we talk about in Episode 1, which is there is a law in the UK called Section 28, which banned any, it was what they said was the promotion of homosexuality by local authorities, which meant that there was like absolutely no out teachers in schools, and no, like LGBT sex education.
And so there's like all of these reasons that we've been kind of like, torn apart from each other and had to have these kind of lonely experiences of working ourselves out. And so I think often, you know, someone would say literally like, why did we make this podcast? So that we could meet other queer Bruce fans. Like all of the kind of weird, intricate things that you do are ultimately just about, like finding friends and finding connection and being together.
CASIO: Yeah, definitely the weird thing, though at the time, because I grew up under Section 28. So all of my schooling was, you know, you couldn't talk about being queer. There was no no books or literature. No, no discussion, no one to talk to for, like, confidential advice.
So that was my experience being a young person, before I listened to Bruce I was already listening to, like queer core punk. So I was listening to hardcore queer, radical punk, and that was inspiring as well. Like that absolutely saved my life.
But there was something about hearing Bruce singing, this cis white straight man. That kind of I don't know that the platform that he had the stage, that he had the presence that he had, it just shifted something for me. It wasn't this kind of underground, queer radical movement. It was this kind of big, bombastic anthem that was played on mainstream radio, and I, I knew he wasn't a, a queer singer, or I'm making the assumption he's not a queer singer. Who knows? It didn't matter to me because it was the and the feeling that mattered more than anything.
DINGMAN: Well, one of the most fascinating things about the show is that you also talk about the ways that Bruce's visual presentation, particularly on his album covers, could be interpreted as queer coded in a lot of cases. How much of his resonance is purely musical? Do you think he would still feel as much like an icon to you if only one or the other of those things felt queer coded?
LAWSON: I don't know if I can separate those two things, and I think it's that thing where, like once you notice one thing. So once you're like, oh, these lyrics are like, so relatable to a career experience, and then you're looking at pictures of them here and you're like, oh, like he's He's dressed in a studded leather jacket like pouting with a pink background, like he looks like, you know, five of my like, twink friends.
And then you read his autobiography and he says in his autobiography. Like looking back on these looks, I look gay, and you're like, oh, yes. But I think it's like we talk about a lot in the show, is like there's definitely a Bruce Springsteen that exists in our brains. That we actually have no idea is anything like the real Bruce Springsteen. And also neither of us know whether that matters.
CASIO: Yeah, I'd say it for me. It definitely doesn't matter. I kind of, it's more fun to kind of play a dress up with Bruce and kind of kind of ask yourself like, do I wanna be him or like, do I wanna date him like I'm not quite sure. And the great thing about Bruce and all his looks is that to depending on what mood you're in, or depending on what, what level of your journey you are in, and like your queerness There's a Bruce for everyone.
So if you like the macho Bruce, you've got it. If you want, like them or like leather twink Bruce, you've got it. If you want soft butch lesbian vibe Bruce, there's a Bruce for everyone.
DINGMAN: Sure, sure, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And, and you, actually, both of you in, in that answer anticipated one of my other questions. Which was, what would it feel like to know if Bruce embraces his status as a queer icon or if he was to reject it?
CASIO: Yeah, I think I'm quite happy just to kind of live with my imagined Bruce Springsteen because he can't let me down. Queers have this amazing skill of being able to take art and take popular culture and make it mean what they need it to mean.
So whether that's a TV show or a book or a person or a song or an album, and whether it's intended to be or not, it can become this really important and empowering piece of art, which helps you get out of bed in the morning or makes you feel seen or makes you feel recognized and gives you the energy that you need to go along and do your business.
And so I think at the end of this incredibly scientific study, if the results come back negative or maybe even inconclusive, I'm, I'm still happy to consider Bruce Springsteen as the queer icon of my dreams.
