KJZZ’s Friday NewsCap revisits some of the biggest stories of the week from Arizona and beyond.
To talk about an auditor general report on the state’s ESA program, a dispute over the eligibility of a newly-appointed county official and more, The Show sat down with Daniel Scarpinato of Winged Victory Agency and Mike Haener of Lumen Strategies.
Transcript
MARK BRODIE: Hi, I’m Mark Brodie, and this is the Friday NewsCap podcast. Each week, we review the biggest stories week with experts, reporters and commentators to put the news in perspective.
Here’s this week’s episode:
TOM HORNE: They quoted Kim as saying, “I did not have authority to deny those because the parents knew what was best for their kids.” So if Kim were superintendent —
KIMBERLY YEE: That’s not true.
TOM HORNE: She would be granting Rolex watches.
KIMBERLY YEE: It's not true. I would not grant Rolex watches.
REX SCOTT: Also, on the advice of counsel, I move that we refer allegations of potential perjury by the sheriff to the Arizona Attorney General's Office and to direct the county administrator to do so on behalf of the board.
JAKE HOFFMAN: We are talking about making sure that we don't have adverse actors coordinating in concert to obstruct the educational opportunities of Arizona kids.
MARK KELLY: Whether it's I make a point on a show like yours or in an open hearing, they don't want to give specific answers, because they probably at this point they realize that they've made a number of mistakes.
JOHN CONLEY: Have I been an infantryman on the front lines in a battle? No, I have not. But I can take care of those infantrymen because I have been doing this job for nearly 40 years.
MARK BRODIE: And joining me to talk about an auditor general report on the state’s ESA program, a dispute over the eligibility of a newly appointed county official and more are Daniel Scarpinato of Winged Victory Agency. Daniel, good morning.
DANIEL SCARPINATO: Good morning.
MARK BRODIE: And Mike Haener of Lumen Strategies. Mike, good morning to you.
MIKE HAENER: Good morning.
MARK BRODIE: So, Daniel, let me start with you on this ESA report. The Auditor General’s Office basically found some instances of fraud and purchases that shouldn’t have been allowed. But it seems like the bigger issue was that like there’s almost the environment that would allow more of this.
So it’s almost like the auditor general said, “We don’t know that there’s like widespread problems here, but we also don’t know that there’s not.”
DANIEL SCARPINATO: Yeah. So, my takeaway here is fraud is bad, OK? And this is why conservatives are generally skeptical of large government programs, which this is one of those at this point.
And so, there is major disruption happening in the education sector. The largest kindergarten class ever in Arizona was 2012; it’s been on the decline since. Last year, only 62% of parents chose a traditional district school to put their kid into. AI is fundamentally changing our economy and what education is going to look like.
So, regardless of what happens with this program long term, there is going to be an upheaval within the education system over the next decade that’s going to fundamentally change this, and choice is going to be important.
So we have to get this right. This program is going to exist in some form, no matter what happens at the ballot this year — because actually it’s interesting, Democrats are no longer talking about getting rid of the program.
MARK BRODIE: Well, there are two competing ballot measures dealing with this program.
DANIEL SCARPINATO: But both of those would leave it in place, and there would still be families on it. And so, this is a technology issue. Other states have followed us — like Texas, Utah, Iowa — and they’ve gotten this right. There’s an RFI, RFP process out there to open this up.
And as I’ve been able to walk through the current program with parents, it just seems like it’s very clunky. I think some of this is people accidentally purchasing things through their Amazon account, which is linked. There’s a lot here that could and should be fixed. And so, the treasurer is not wrong that there are things that need to be fixed about it. The policy is there to do it; it’s an implementation issue.
MARK BRODIE: Well, so Republicans, Daniel, have been really resistant to putting any kind of changes in place in terms of what critics would call guardrails, maybe funding more auditors at the Department of Education, making sure that some of these purchases aren’t unauthorized. Might this report be the thing that changes that?
DANIEL SCARPINATO: Well, I would actually challenge that. Republicans did propose more money for people at the department. The Democrats opposed that.
And I also think, yes, I think the answer is people do want to get this right. I think that there needs to be focus on … you could hire 100 people. I mean with AI and technology, you can prevent a lot of this without humans reviewing every transaction.
I actually think part of the problem right now is that that is how they’re doing it, is that people are purchasing things and then we’re going in and looking at all of them. I think so much of this could be done at the front end with technology.
MARK BRODIE: Do you see changes to the program, Mike, after this report?
MIKE HAENER: God, no. I was going to agree with Daniel, but Republicans have their head in the sand on this. They talk about waste, fraud and abuse constantly in every government program — except this one.
This is a cash cow, and it’s allowing people to do whatever they want, and there is no interest by this Legislature to make any changes to that program.
MARK BRODIE: Do you think it will have an impact on the superintendent’s race? I mean, it was sort of one of the issues that got Kimberly Yee, the state treasurer, into the primary against public school Superintendent Tom Horne in the first place. Is there any reason to think that this will not continue to be an issue in that primary?
MIKE HAENER: Oh, I think it will be an issue in the primary and and again, there are folks that will vote in that primary that again, think this program shouldn’t have any guardrails around it. And if you look at education in Arizona, where I agree with Daniel is we have a reckoning coming in the fact that we have declining birth rates and declining enrollments, and we’re going to have to realign the K-12 system.
The challenge is, right now we have three different educational systems. We have the traditional K-12 system, we have the charter system, and now we have this ESA system. They all get different amounts of money, and they all have different sets of rules.
And if you look at any bill that is that is offered at the Legislature, they generally say, “We’re going to put more rules and regulations around the traditional K-12 world, not so much the charters, and nothing for the ESA program.” That seems to be a bad way to run a railroad.
MARK BRODIE: Daniel, do you think that this report could swing the Republican primary for state school superintendent?
DANIEL SCARPINATO: No, I don’t think this report is going to do that. I would prefer if you agreed with me next time, Mike. You should have gone with your instincts.
Look, this is fundamentally an important program, and parents should get to choose what to do with their children, their education, and their dollars. And so the good news is this has issue has changed a lot. It’s still partisan in nature, but Democrats have actually ceded a lot of ground and accepted that parents want school choice. And the question is, how do we get it right and how do we preserve it?
MARK BRODIE: Is there time given where we are in the legislative session — I’ll ask both of you because you’ve both spent time with the Legislature. Is there time to do anything about this program? And maybe is there the will in an election year to do anything about this program in 2026, Mike?
MIKE HAENER: No. As I said, this Republican Legislature and the folks negotiating the budget — because that’s probably the last place that we could make changes to the ESA program — are not going to be OK with making any changes to that program. They’re going to say no.
MARK BRODIE: Well, I mean, House Speaker Steve Montenegro has said that these issues that the report brought up need to be addressed. Do you think he’s not looking to actually do that? Or maybe he is and the caucus isn’t?
MIKE HAENER: Not in this session.
MARK BRODIE: Not in the session. Daniel, do you think there’s time this year?
DANIEL SCARPINATO: Well, I don’t believe that there necessarily need to be policy changes. I do think there need to be implementation changes. Shockingly, government isn’t good at everything. And I think there’s room for improvement.
MARK BRODIE: Mike just made a shocked face when you said that government isn’t good at everything, by the way.
Let me ask you guys about a story out of Pima County where the sheriff, Chris Nanos, has been in some hot water with the Board of Supervisors. There was some talk that the board might try to remove him from office. They decided not to do that but instead refer his case and allegations of potential perjury to the Attorney General’s Office.
I guess, Mike, in a sense it’s good for Sheriff Nanos that he wasn’t removed from office, but maybe not great that he’s going to have the AG’s Office looking into him?
MIKE HAENER: Yeah, you never want to have that, but obviously the Board of Supervisors I don’t think is able to remove him for whatever indiscretions that that they’ve alleged. And so referring him to the Attorney General’s Office is probably the only thing that they really could do.
MARK BRODIE: Daniel, we’ll call on your Tucson roots here. I mean, Nanos has been under fire for a little while now with various constituents in that community. How big of a potential problem is this for him politically, do you think?
DANIEL SCARPINATO: Well, it seems like a problem. I mean, it’s a very one-party-rule county: Democrat. And the Democrats were highly critical of him, even though they didn’t remove him. Their comments were pretty harsh. And so that tells me that there is some there there.
And frankly, this is really a result of a national, international spotlight shining on someone who was really not prepared for that moment around the issue of Nancy Guthrie, Savannah Guthrie’s mother. And he’s kind of had several stumbles. And so, people are now starting to look around and vet more than they do in a Pima County Sheriff’s race.
MARK BRODIE: Might this be — I don’t want to say the end — but could this be a real problem for his political future, to the extent that he might want to have one?
DANIEL SCARPINATO: Well, yes, I don’t think he’s got much of a future. I think either something’s going to happen here. There could be a recall, there’s all kinds of things floating around.
I also think it’s possible this might spark a discussion around should there be requirements to be a sheriff?
MARK BRODIE: Like in terms of job requirements?
DANIEL SCARPINATO: There are none.
MARK BRODIE: Like you have to have you have to have X, Y, and Z experience or something like that.
DANIEL SCARPINATO: There are no requirements.
MARK BRODIE: Interesting. Do you think that’s a a discussion worth having?
MIKE HAENER: One hundred percent. Going back to the superintendent’s race as well, my feeling is that those positions — superintendent, sheriff — should actually be appointed by the board of supervisors with qualifications because again, as the board of supervisors, you’re in charge of the county, and you want a law enforcement official at the head of that sheriff’s department that you trust and have faith in and that you could hire and fire. It seems to me to make sense that those types of positions would be appointed.
MARK BRODIE: Interesting. And there’s obviously been discussion about other county and even statewide offices of like, why do we elect them, why do we not appoint them, that kind of thing. It’s an interesting perspective.
MIKE HAENER: And again, going back to the superintendent’s race, so the the governor is elected by the people, and then the superintendent’s elected by the people. Now they’re different parties. So are their education goals in alignment? You would really think you’d want state government to be aligned in what they want to pursue from an education standpoint.
MARK BRODIE: More like a cabinet kind of situation then, than every separate office, interesting.
Mike, let me start with you on Attorney General Kris Mayes has taken steps to remove David Marshall from the office of Navajo County recorder. He started the year as a state legislator, was in running in the primary uh as a Republican to be on the Corporation Commission, resigned from the Legislature, was appointed as Navajo County recorder, but a number of people are saying he’s not constitutionally allowed to hold that office.
MIKE HAENER: Yeah, I would agree with that. The constitution says that a legislator is not allowed to hold another state office, including a county office, in the term to which they were elected. The term, even though he resigned, the term runs through January of 2027. So, I would agree that he’s not eligible to take that office.
MARK BRODIE: Daniel, I mean, with the stipulation that none of the three of us in this room are lawyers, clearly there was some speculation that if he took this appointment, that there would be a challenge. Do you think that there’s a chance he could be removed from office?
DANIEL SCARPINATO: Well, in the scheme of constitutional crises, this one feels low. But I do think even the attorney general acknowledged that there isn’t really any precedent here. And so, you know the courts will make a determination, and we’ll have some clarity. But I think his argument is that the law is not clear-cut, and so the courts will make a determination and then, if it is vacated, there’ll be a process to fill his replacement.
MARK BRODIE: I mean, I guess if nothing else, we will get some precedent on this, right? And maybe the courts will issue some guidance on does the the term to which a person is elected, does that include the time of the actual term or just while they’re actually serving the office?
DANIEL SCARPINATO: Correct, and that’s what we don’t know. But, you know, one of the interesting things to me is you’ve you’ve seen this year a ton of special elections around the country for legislative seats.
We don’t do that. So there’s no chance of this seat swinging or anything really changing with the Legislature, other than a different legislator in this seat.
MARK BRODIE: And it has to be from the same party.
DANIEL SCARPINATO: Right. So, there isn’t really, to me, any real huge consequence to this.
MIKE HAENER: Other than to David Marshall, who wouldn’t be the county recorder anymore or a legislator, or potentially a corporation commissioner.
DANIEL SCARPINATO: I guess the question is, which job’s better? And, you know, I don’t exactly understand the desire to stay down at the state Capitol, but you know, hey, whatever floats his boat.
MARK BRODIE: Well, clearly he didn’t want to. He wanted to be a Navajo County recorder.
DANIEL SCARPINATO: Sounds more fun to me.
MIKE HAENER: From a from a pay and a driving perspective, I think that being the county recorder is much, much better job.
MARK BRODIE: Certainly put fewer miles on the on the vehicle, that’s for sure.
Mike, our U.S. senator, Mark Kelly, he and (Secretary of War) Pete Hegseth just can’t seem to stop bickering with each other. Hegseth says the Department of Defense is going to look into Sen. Kelly after Kelly made some comments on one of the Sunday morning shows about the U.S. munitions stockpiles based on the war with Iran.
Kelly says, “Mr. Secretary, you said this in a public hearing. What’s the deal here?” It seems as though, sort of getting around all the bickering, all this stuff has seemed to be really good for Mark Kelly.
MIKE HAENER: Very good for Mark Kelly. And again, the appetite for going after your political opponents in this administration seems endless. But as Kelly pointed out, Hegseth actually said this in a public hearing, and I don’t think Kelly put it in a confidential Signal chat with a reporter.
So this is just, again, “I don’t like you and I have the ability to make your life miserable,” and that’s what this is.
MARK BRODIE: At a certain point, Daniel, like does Hegseth recognize that he’s elevating somebody that maybe otherwise wouldn’t be elevated quite so much?
DANIEL SCARPINATO: I don’t know, but I agree with a lot of what Mike said. And it’s fascinating to me because eight months into office last year, (U.S. Sen.) Ruben Gallego went to Iowa to fan the flames of a presidential run. And now you kind of look at these two senators with all that’s transpired over the last few weeks and you say, OK, Mark Kelly, if he wants to run, looking pretty good, getting a lot of good national press. Ruben Gallego, not so much. But that might be for another show.
MARK BRODIE: Well, and Kelly has always been known as somebody who raises a lot of money. We’ve seen those numbers just go up — pardon the pun — astronomically since the whole “you don’t have to obey illegal orders” controversy going on.
DANIEL SCARPINATO: Yeah, through him and his wife’s network, they’ve been fundraising powerhouses. And so, I think he’s ambitious. I think he does want to do something beyond this. And so, we shall see.
MIKE HAENER: And and remember, every human that is elected to the United States Senate thinks and wants to be president, regardless of what they say.
MARK BRODIE: Well, and he’s not been shy about saying that he’s seriously thinking about it. I mean, to your point, a lot of a lot of people, especially before the midterm, will say, “Oh, I’m focused on the midterms, I’ll think about it at the proper time.” He has been very clear about saying, “I’m taking a serious look at it.”
MIKE HAENER: Yeah, and again, in this day and age, you have to. Twenty years ago, campaigns ended. Somebody was elected, and the campaign ended.
Now we just have endless campaigns. You’re constantly running. It doesn’t matter for what. You’re always on, and you’re always in campaign mode. You’re raising money, you’re going out to Iowa, you’re going out to wherever, you’re trying to build your network for whatever it happens to be that you think you might want to run for next.
MARK BRODIE: Yeah, interesting.
All right, guys. A couple minutes left. Daniel, I want to ask you about a story, a piece in the Washington Post late this week written by longtime columnist George Will, who is writing about your former boss, Gov. Doug Ducey, and it was sort of a fictitious campaign announcement for president from Gov. Ducey, what George Will imagined or maybe wanted Doug Ducey to say in his campaign announcement. And it seems like the general theme was, “I will make the presidency boring again.”
DANIEL SCARPINATO: Well, yes. George Will is in my view kind of the pope of conservatism. He spends a lot of time here in Arizona, he loves baseball, he’s written a couple books about it.
MARK BRODIE: He does.
DANIEL SCARPINATO: And he’s a big fan of Gov. Ducey, as am I. And I think he was painting a picture of what a lot of conservatives would like to see, which is a return to a very traditional conservatism that is not just conservatism in policy, but in style.
And I think Gov. Ducey and a lot of other governors represent that in how how they conduct themselves and how they govern. So if the governor announces for president, I’ll be the first one to jump on board.
I don’t believe that’s going to happen. But I’m also not convinced — and this is me speaking, and he might not like me saying this — but I think he still has a lot to offer in some capacity in public service, whatever that is in the future. And he’s got a lot of good years ahead of him.
MARK BRODIE: When you say that what George Will wrote was something that a lot of conservatives are kind of longing for, do you think that would be enough conservatives for someone like Gov. Ducey to be successful in a Republican presidential primary?
DANIEL SCARPINATO: You know, somebody once described to me that when Americans elect a president, it’s kind of like when you get out of a bad relationship and you want the complete opposite. And so you look at OK, George W. Bush produces Obama. Obama produces Trump. Trump produces Joe Biden, etc.
And I do think that probably the next president might be somebody none of us are talking about and is probably going to be a very different kind of person, whether they’re Republican or Democrat.
MIKE HAENER: Yeah, and while I agree with Daniel at least on the point that I don’t think this is a conservative want. I think this is a lot of Americans want the presidency to be a little less in your face 24/7 and just go do your job and make my life better. And that’s not what’s happening today. The president is in your face 24/7, and he’s not making our lives any better or any easier.
MARK BRODIE: I’m going to paraphrase something that George Will wrote because I don’t have the piece right in front of me, but he basically said, “You’ll go weeks without even knowing I’m here.” Basically saying Gov. Ducey is the kind of candidate — and to Daniel’s point, maybe the kind of candidate that some or a lot of people want — to just sort of do the work, not on TV every day, not posting on social media every day, just kind of doing the job.
MIKE HAENER: That I think that’s what a lot of us want, again, whether you’re a Democrat or Republican, I, I just don’t think we want this constant barrage of the president in your face.
DANIEL SCARPINATO: That’s why Mike and so many other Arizonans were such a fan of Gov. Ducey and his leadership.
MARK BRODIE: Speaking of tongue being firmly planted in cheek there. All right, we’ll have to leave it there. Mike Haener, Daniel Scarpinato, thanks to you both for the conversation, I really appreciate it.
DANIEL SCARPINATO: Thanks a lot.
MARK BRODIE: You’ve been listening to the Friday NewsCap from KJZZ’s The Show. It’s an original podcast recapping the week's biggest stories with experts, commentators and reporters. You can get the full Show podcast at podcast.kjzz.org. I'm Mark Brodie, thanks for listening.
