KJZZ’s Friday NewsCap revisits some of the biggest stories of the week from Arizona and beyond.
To talk about subpoenas issued in an alleged pay to play scandal, a ruling on the president’s plan to restrict mail-in voting and more, The Show sat down with former state lawmaker Regina Cobb and Gaelle Esposito of Creosote Partners.
Transcript
ANNOUNCER: KJZZ’s original production The Show is supported by Banner Health, Arizona’s largest nonprofit healthcare system. Last year, Banner reinvested more than $1.1 billion in community health and charity care. Banner Health, nonprofit for Arizona. bannerhealth.com/nonprofitforaz.
MARK BRODIE: Hi, I’m Mark Brodie, and this is the Friday NewsCap podcast. Each week, we review the biggest stories week with experts, reporters and commentators to put the news in perspective.
Here’s this week’s episode:
KRIS MAYES: If this decision had gone the other way, it would have caused serious chaos in our elections. I think as of Saturday, 18 states had already sent out early ballots.
JAKE HOFFMAN: I’m very shocked that you think trying to get to the bottom of alleged pay-to-play corruption is political theater. It is absolutely not political theater to pursue this investigation.
RUBEN GALLEGO: We’re hoping that some committee in the House or in the Senate is just going to come together with some staffers and put together the framework that’s going to go into place maybe three years from now. We don’t have the time. Dr. Frankenstein is telling us the monster’s escaped. Help us stop this.
KIMBERLY YEE: Many of these children are students with disabilities. So once you start digging into their educational environment and their educational needs, you start violating the HIPAA laws.
TERESA LEYBA RUIZ: Look, I spent 25 years in the classroom teaching mathematics. Arizona is at the bottom in our nation funding, and this has all happened under my opponent’s watch.
JEFF FLAKE: He was the consummate public servant, and he could have made a lot more money and been a lot more comfortable doing something else. But he was a true public servant, and Arizona benefited significantly.
MARK BRODIE: And joining me to talk about subpoenas issued in an alleged pay-to-play scandal, a ruling on the president’s plan to restrict mail-in voting and more are former state lawmaker Regina Cobb. Regina, good morning.
REGINA COBB: Good morning, Mark.
MARK BRODIE: And Gaelle Esposito of Creasote Partners. Gaelle, good morning to you.
GAELLE ESPOSITO: Good morning to you.
MARK BRODIE: So, Regina, let me start with you on State Sen. Jake Hoffman. He is chair of the Arizona Freedom Caucus. He has issued subpoenas to, among others, the attorney general, the governor, wants to talk about this Sunshine Residential investigation, and he says he wants to get to the bottom of this. And, you know, he wants to hear from them in just a couple of weeks, which will be not that long before mail-in ballots go out.
REGINA COBB: Yeah, I think the timing is unfortunate. I think that if they were going to do an investigation, do it during the session. But I also think the timing of AG Mayes releasing that she has no findings, her investigation was untimely, too. And I think that’s what they’re doing. They’re playing political theater right now, even though they say they’re not. Both sides are.
MARK BRODIE: Well, so we just heard from Jake Hoffman saying, “This is absolutely, positively not political theater.” You say it is?
REGINA COBB: Oh, I definitely think it is. Like I said, it should be done during session when you actually have a committee, if you want to do a subpoena and you want to get this rolling before a political vote during our election. I think that’s political theater. And her releasing that went — like I said, her side, too. I think they’re both doing it, and I think his response to it is because of that.
MARK BRODIE: Gaelle, political theater?
GAELLE ESPOSITO: Oh, obviously. Yeah. And you want to talk about quid pro quo: Jake Hoffman’s company received over a half a million dollars to support the Biggs campaign like the day before he announced these investigations. So I think there’s a little bit of suspect timing on his part there, outside of everything else. He’s getting paid to help the Biggs campaign. Of course he’s going to announce these investigations now.
I think there’s nothing there. It’s clear there’s been nothing there. I’m not surprised by the timing of the release of that investigation. She could have held it until after the election and done it that way, but announcing this has given Jake Hoffman the opportunity to try and do these subpoenas in this investigation.
So I think there’s one side here that’s really trying to make some hay out of something, and I think there’s nothing that’s going to be found. And I think he knows that, but he wants them to say no. And I think they should, because it’s just playing into his game.
MARK BRODIE: Saying no to showing up, you mean? So you don’t think either Gov. Hobbs or AG Mayes shows up later this month?
GAELLE ESPOSITO: No. Why should they? Yeah, this is a joke. It’s a farce, and it’s coming from a man who’s getting paid really big bucks to support Andy Biggs.
MARK BRODIE: Regina, do you think they show up?
REGINA COBB: No, I don’t. I think that neither one of them are going to show up. I think that he wants that, though. He’s just trying to refocus it. He’s trying to refocus of where where the ball is.
MARK BRODIE: To keep this issue sort of front and center?
REGINA COBB: To keep it front and center. Now, I disagree. I think that there could be something there. If there wasn’t anything, it should have been released before the primary. If there was something there, then maybe released after the general election. I don’t know. I just think that their timing of what AG Mayes did just opened it up for this.
MARK BRODIE: So does this stay in the news? I mean, does this continue to be something that the attorney general and the governor and others are going to have to talk about? I mean, there’s going to be a hearing in a couple of weeks. Presumably there will be coverage of that. But do you think this gambit is going to work for Sen. Hoffman?
REGINA COBB: I don’t, because, I mean, as we know, Gov. Hobbs won’t even debate at this point. Do you think she’s going to show up for a subpoena? I mean, so this isn’t something that’s going to happen. It is out there. Does it gain any traction? I don’t think so.
MARK BRODIE: Gaelle, do you think this is a headache for either Mayes or Hobbs?
GAELLE ESPOSITO: No. I mean, Jake Hoffman got what he wanted. We’re talking about it now, but I don’t think we’re talking about it in the way that he hoped. And I think that’s going to be what continues to play out here.
Folks understand what this is. I think it only will look bad for him in the end, and maybe you’ll get some media coverage about how no one showed up and how he just put on a show. But that’s all that’s going to happen here.
MARK BRODIE: All right. So, Gaelle, I mentioned mail-in ballots going out. We got a ruling from the U.S. Supreme Court this week on an executive order from President Trump that would have had some pretty significant changes to how mail-in ballots work, especially in a place like Arizona where, as we’ve talked about a lot on this show, the vast majority of voters vote early, vote by mail. Basically, status quo for at least 2026.
GAELLE ESPOSITO: Yeah. And I think, you know, part of the problem here is that some damage has already been done, right? What they wanted to do was undermine faith in the mail-in voting process, and I think for a lot of folks, they managed to accomplish that.
And that’s really unfortunate because, as you mentioned, the vast, vast majority of Arizona voters use mail-in voting. It is safe. It’s secure. It works, and it’s convenient for folks. It improves participation.
And so it’s been really unfortunate to see just the skepticism that this has driven and the lack of faith that is coming out of this process. So hopefully, we got a good Supreme Court ruling, the process stays the same. Hopefully, people continue to participate in that system, and we get to protect the integrity of mail-in voting.
MARK BRODIE: Regina, is there a danger that this could backfire on the president’s party, on Republicans? I mean, the GOP in this state basically invented and perfected mail-in voting, as many people sitting in that chair have said before today. And we saw what happened in 2020 when the president told his supporters, “Don’t vote by mail.”
REGINA COBB: Yeah. I don’t think it’s going to backfire. I think it’s a non-issue. Now that the Supreme Court has made their decision, you’re not going to put that genie back in the bottle. We have mail-in ballots. It’s not going to happen, especially this close to this election. If it was going to happen, it needs to happen in 2027, and that needs to go forward.
Do we have some issues? I disagree with her that it’s completely worry-free. No, we have issues. I myself moved into my home two years ago and had three mail-in ballots that didn’t have my name on it, had somebody else’s. Now, if I was a fraudster, guess what I would have done?
So I think this year the rolls are cleaned up. I think that I only received mine. I didn’t receive the other three that I had prior. So I think that what we need to do is continue working towards making sure that it’s a safe process, and I think that’s what we got to work for.
MARK BRODIE: Can we at this point, though, separate out like legit clean-up things, tweaks that need to be made, or maybe more than tweaks, changes that need to be made to really shore up the system — can we separate those sorts of things out from general election skepticism or denialism at this point, or are the two so intertwined?
REGINA COBB: I don’t know if you can separate them. I don’t think you can separate them. I think that’s what needs to happen, but I don’t know if it’s going to separate. People that do not believe in mail-in ballots are still going to not believe in mail-in ballots, even if you clean up all of that.
MARK BRODIE: Even people who believed in mail-in ballots in 2018.
REGINA COBB: The problem we have, especially in Arizona, is we just moved our primary into July. What elderly person is going to sit out for two hours in 110-degree weather? It’s not going to happen. So there’s going to be mail — you got to have both. Like I said, you can’t put that genie back in the bottle.
MARK BRODIE: Well, Gaelle, there’s been a lot of talk this week after the Supreme Court ruling that one of the rationales the justices gave was that it is very close to this election, too close to the 2026 election to be making changes. Didn’t necessarily preclude those kinds of changes coming for 2028. So do you see this as continuing to be an issue over the next couple of years leading up to the next election?
GAELLE ESPOSITO: Oh, yeah. Election denialism is here to stay, right? I don’t think this election’s going to go the president’s way, so I think we’re going to hear even more of it. And unfortunately, they will continue to do everything they can to undermine the faith in our electoral system and these processes that have worked, that have been secure, that people have trusted and habits built into utilizing.
And it’s unfortunate that we’re going to continue to see that, this undermining of our democracy. And hopefully some voices start to rise up and say no to that, but I’m not holding my breath.
MARK BRODIE: I mean, is there anything, do you think, that could happen — I’ll ask both of you — that could happen in this election that would lead people who are skeptical or election deniers to say, “Oh, OK, this actually works”?
GAELLE ESPOSITO: No. Yeah, I mean, that’s the thing, right? Is that the elections work great if they win, they are all fraud if they lose, and what is important to them is doing whatever they can to hold onto power and to have what they think is every advantage they possibly can. And that’s unfortunate because all it does is undermine faith in our democracy, like I said.
MARK BRODIE: Regina, you’re nodding along.
REGINA COBB: Yeah, no, I don’t think that you’re going to change the minds of election deniers with this election. I think they feel that it is unsafe, or that we are not doing what we should be doing to make sure the elections are credible.
MARK BRODIE: Gaelle, let me start with you. There was a debate this week between the two candidates for Superintendent of Public Instruction. It’s interesting because ESAs, otherwise known as vouchers, were thought to be going to be like a super big issue in this election. There were going to be a bunch of ballot initiatives, and in this race, none of those initiatives ended up making the ballot. So we’re kind of left with the superintendent’s race.
And, yes, ESAs were part of the discussion, but not the only part of the discussion. And there was clearly some, as you might not be surprised to learn, debate between the two of them and some disagreement over the role of where ESAs should go and what the role of the state should be in regulating them.
GAELLE ESPOSITO: Yeah, yeah. You know, you saw a lot of disappointment and frustration from advocates of ESA reform this year, and I think that frustration has to go somewhere. And I think it’s going to be focused on this race. So I think that’s going to propel Dr. Leyba Ruiz into that office at the end of the day.
Because when you look at this race, Kim Yee is someone who doesn’t believe there should really be any accountability — no testing, no financial oversight really — for the ESA voucher program. And it’s really unfortunate that, like, folks can’t see what’s right in front of their face of the fraud and abuse that’s here. But that’s what ideology does to you sometimes.
So that’s what we’re seeing here with Kim Yee is just this purist who thinks that this program can do no wrong and doesn’t need any oversight or accountability. And unfortunately, we don’t know how these kids are doing. We don’t know for sure that this money is being spent wisely. We’ve seen it spent on rings and TVs and things that educational dollars should not be going for.
And so I think all of that frustration, all of that pent-up anger of voters towards this system is going to be focused right on this race.
MARK BRODIE: Are you hearing chatter in the community that people are really like paying attention to this race? And I ask only because it’s sort of a downballot race. And even four years ago when Democrats won the top three — Tom Horne, Kimberly Yee won in her race for treasurer — that once you got down ballot a little bit, Republicans still controlled the Legislature, Republicans still did pretty well.
GAELLE ESPOSITO: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, four years ago, Tom Horne outspent Kathy Hoffman by 10 to 1, right? And Kim Yee doesn’t have that kind of financial advantage. And it’s a very different year from four years ago, right? We’re looking towards a potential Democratic wave year, so that environment might be better.
And Kim Yee, you know, is someone who I think will perform better than a lot of other statewide Republicans. She’s been around a long time. She’s a real competent campaigner.
But I think this issue, there has been so much attention to it, so much focus on it. You had this potential for reform this year that got squandered. And I think those folks are active and engaged and they’re out there working on this race and working to flip the Legislature.
MARK BRODIE: Regina, do you see what Gaelle is talking about in terms of people who were excited about the ballot referral to sort of reign in ESAs, maybe putting that energy other places?
REGINA COBB: I don’t see it going on this race. I think this is a downballot race, and I mean if you ask how many people watched the debate, I would say it’s pretty small.
So I think what the voters are going to look at is who’s the competent person, who they feel comfortable with. Kimberly Yee has that. She’s confident, she’s been in office before, she knows what she’s doing. As our treasurer, she did a really good job, and I think that they’re going to look at those kind of records going forward.
So I disagree with her. I think that Kimberly’s going to come out on top on this one.
MARK BRODIE: Do you think voters are looking at the records or do you think they’re looking at the party affiliations next to the candidate’s name on this one?
REGINA COBB: I think they’re probably looking more at the party affiliation. Now when you talk about ESA, that may play into it somewhat, but obviously we don’t have any ballot measures on there. So you’re not going to be bringing the people out for the ballot measures one way or the other. So I think it is going to be a downballot Republican/Democrat choice.
MARK BRODIE: OK. So one thing that Democrats and Republicans, at least some of them, can or seem to agree on right now is that they’re terrified of AI. We heard from policymakers, we heard from the leaders of some of the companies this week that, you know, they need — they want things to slow down. They maybe need Congress or the federal government to regulate things. President Trump is saying he doesn’t think that’s the case. But, Gaelle, we heard from both Republican and Democratic policymakers, legislators this week that this is something we need to do, and we probably needed to do it like a month ago.
GAELLE ESPOSITO: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think we have a really big problem with AI here. We have let these tech bros and their fantasies run amok, and we need to reign it in. There are things you can do, just making them pay for the materials that they’re training their AI on, making them pay for the negative externalities that AI causes, like we do with other scams.
That’s the kind of stuff that we need to be thinking about. Because I think there is a lot to be afraid of here. I think, you know, the “AI is going to kill us all” through line hopefully isn’t true, but like the fact that we’re even having to talk about that, and that folks are still saying, “No, they can regulate themselves.”
I mean, that’s crazy. That’s fundamentally crazy. It’s people abdicating their responsibility to do something here to make sure that we’re not letting these billionaires just run amok. I think we need to see some action.
MARK BRODIE: Well, Regina, we’ve seen already this year that data centers and their relationship with AI have become really big campaign issues in some areas. Do you see what we saw this week with AI becoming something that candidates are going to start talking about on the trail?
REGINA COBB: Oh, we’ve been talking about this for a long time. So this is not something new. Yeah, we need some controls over AI, and with the data centers. Under medicine: right now, your claims are being reviewed by AI. Who’s responsible for that? Who’s going to take liability when that’s wrong? What if there’s a cancer treatment that could save somebody’s life, but AI says, “No, this is not going to go that direction”?
We actually have model legislation out there right now that is being proposed that says AI is an actual provider, healthcare provider, so taking the place of a healthcare provider. That is bizarre. I mean, to not have your hands on, talk to somebody and have an actual virtual person giving you all of your medical treatment would be disastrous.
MARK BRODIE: Regina, I’m curious to get your take on this, having served in the Legislature. Do you get the sense that policymakers understand AI enough to really come up with the right rules of the road for it? And this is not throwing shade on them. I think there are a lot of humans who don’t really understand AI, not just people who are elected to office.
REGINA COBB: I don’t. I don’t think they do understand it. And one of the things that we had issues on a few years ago, we had where they had to have medical necessity, an actual person look at something if it was medically necessary. And they wanted us to describe AI.
Well, California was trying to describe AI, and it was like a 35-page description of it. And it was like, that’s going to change over every day that we go through this. The average person doesn’t even know what AI is, and then you’re trying to legislate that? That’s going to be an issue.
MARK BRODIE: Gaelle, is this one that you think Republicans and Democrats can really come together on and forge something meaningful?
GAELLE ESPOSITO: I hope so, because this is one of those rare issues that isn’t partisanly sorted yet. So, yeah, hopefully. And here we are both nodding along and being, you know.
We have to stop giving AI control of pieces of our lives where they cannot be held accountable, right? A computer can’t be held accountable for a decision, like on healthcare, and a person can be. And we still keep handing over more and more control.
Legislators legislate on things they don’t truly understand all the time. And that’s not a reason for us to stop, to avoid putting some controls on this system. I think that’s what democracy is about. You may not fully be an expert on everything, but you deserve to have a voice in how it affects your own life.
And I think that AI is one of these issues where everybody has a concern here. It’s gaining traction among both parties, and hopefully we can see some action taken.
MARK BRODIE: All right. So, Regina, a little less than a minute left here. I want to ask you about former Senator Jon Kyl, who passed away this week. Somebody that you had a chance to work with a little bit. What were to you, what are sort of his lasting legacies from his time in office?
REGINA COBB: His legacy is water. And what a statesman. I mean, this is somebody that you can go back in his whole career, and just, I mean, he is an honorable man, did everything that he could as far as helping the public. I heard earlier someone say that he could have gone into his law practice and made a lot more money than he did with helping out with the state, and with the country, actually.
But when you go back and look at some of the water policies he’s had, all the way back to reservation water, and then the 1980 Groundwater Management Act. Yeah, he really put some perspective on what we needed to be going forward. We don’t have anybody like that right now to take on that champion and move forward with water, and I wish we did.
MARK BRODIE: All right, well, we’ll have to leave it there. Regina Cobb, Gaelle Esposito, thanks to you both for the conversation. I appreciate it.
GAELLE ESPOSITO: Yeah, thank you.
REGINA COBB: Thank you.
MARK BRODIE: You’ve been listening to the Friday NewsCap from KJZZ’s The Show. It’s an original podcast recapping the week's biggest stories with experts, commentators and reporters. You can get the full Show podcast at podcast.kjzz.org. I'm Mark Brodie, thanks for listening.
