A question posed at the Arizona Capitol last month was simple enough — should U.S. citizens be the only people allowed to vote in state and local elections?
But the wishy-washy answers from three lobbyists soon went viral on social media.
The exchange took place during a hearing in the Arizona House of Representatives. Lobbyists for Rural Action Arizona, Living United For Change in Arizona, and the ACLU of Arizona were all testifying in opposition to a GOP-backed bill that would require county recorders to use a federal database known as SAVE to verify that a potential voter is a U.S. citizen.
Critics have warned the database, originally used to check if foreign-born individuals are eligible for government benefits — since overhauled by the Trump administration — is an imperfect citizenship look-up tool. It has, in some cases, erroneously flagged U.S. citizens as ineligible to vote.
During the bill’s hearing, Rep. Alexander Kolodin (R-Scottsdale) pressed the lobbyists to answer: “Do you believe people should have to be United States citizens in order to vote in Arizona’s elections?”
Kolodin never got a straight answer, even though he kept asking — again, and again, and again.
“Mr. Chair, Mr. Kolodin, the Cyber Ninjas found that there were no non-citizens on Arizona voter rolls … ” Katelynn Contreras, a lobbyist for ACLU Arizona began to answer, before she was cut off by another lawmaker’s gavel.
“I don’t have an answer from that directly from LUCHA,” lobbyist Jodi Liggett responded.
“That’s a question that — I’d have to go back for that very specific question,” Rural Action Arizona lobbyist Hugo Polanco said.
Kolodin shared a produced video of the exchanges on X, where it was seen more than half a million times on the social media platform.
“I was shocked. I was absolutely shocked,” said Kolodin, describing the moment to KJZZ. “As I mentioned, usually when people in politics have an incredibly unpopular position they try to hide it or cover it up and that was just blatant. Shockingly blatant.”
He said the reason the lobbyists couldn’t give him a simple yes or no answer is obvious.
“It’s that they want noncitizens to be able to vote in our elections,” Kolodin said.
Reached after the hearing, representatives for two of the three organizations who sent lobbyists to testify on their behalf said answering Kolodin’s question isn’t as simple as he says.
“Essentially, this was a yes or a no question. When you ask for an organization's position on an issue, it is not always a yes or no, especially from the ACLU,” said Amanda Mollindo, director of the ACLU’s Arizona chapter. “We have our reasons. … We recognize that not every U.S. citizen is eligible to vote. So we almost never are willing to answer a simple yes or no.”
Mollindo said the ACLU was and is not advocating to let non-citizens vote, and she emphasized repeatedly that there’s no evidence to show that non-citizens voting is a real problem.
State law already requires Arizonans to prove their citizenship to vote in state and local elections. Voters in Arizona who don’t provide documented proof of their citizenship are only allowed to vote in federal elections, because federal voter registration forms only require applicants to swear under penalty of perjury that they are U.S. citizens.
Antonio Ramirez, the political director of Rural Action Arizona, said Kolodin was simply using a legislative hearing as an opportunity to grandstand on a non-issue.
“What Representative Kolodin is doing is, he’s beating his chest,” Ramirez said. “And he can do that all he wants, but his obsession with noncitizen voting isn’t based in evidence.”
Still, why not give a simple answer? That weighed on Ramirez, who later called KJZZ again after an initial interview. He said he wanted to address people who, unlike Kolodin, may be asking the same question in good faith.
“The reason we don't want to answer questions like that are because we don't want to add to the narrative that non-citizens are less deserving than citizens,” Ramirez said.
Ramirez emphasized that Rural Action Arizona is not advocating for non-citizens to vote. But he said he sympathizes with undocumented Arizonans unable to vote.
“I was just thinking last night and imagining, someone who's undocumented, who's lived here for 20, 30 years, and who's a good person that contributes to their community, and what kind of jerk would I be to tell them to their face that I don't think you should have the right to vote?” Ramirez said.
Does that mean he doesn’t support Arizona’s requirement for documented proof of citizenship before voting, even if he and his organization follow the letter of law as is?
“I would say that, yeah. Well, gosh, I don't — that's a really good question. I don't know. I guess I feel conflicted about it,” Ramirez said.
Ramirez said he would feel less conflicted if it was easier for undocumented Arizonans to gain citizenship, and with it, the right to vote under the law.
“It's just, it's so impossible for so many people to do that,” Ramirez said. “And so, like I said, like those questions that you, or that Kolodin that we're asking, they're simplistic, but they're not, they're not simple. There's a lot to unpack within those questions.”
Living United for Change Arizona did not respond to questions about their lobbyists’ testimony.
As for Kolodin, he’s made his thoughts on election integrity clear, both at the Legislature and in court, where he led unsuccessful lawsuits that made unsubstantiated claims of massive election fraud following President Trump’s loss to Joe Biden in Arizona’s 2020 presidential race.
After the hearing, Kolodin told KJZZ he doesn’t know whether noncitizens are voting.
“I think that it’s very difficult to ascertain right now because with the federal only form there’s no requirement for proof of citizenship, so it’s of concern to me,” Kolodin said.
As for the bill that sparked this viral moment, it passed out of the House on a party line vote, with only Republicans in support. It still needs approval from the whole House and Senate to move forward, and even then, could face a veto from Democratic Gov. Katie Hobbs.
EDITOR'S NOTE: This story has been updated to clarify the quote from Katelynn Contreras.
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