The Show for July 17, 2017: Friday NewsCap, why humidity feels so hot and more

President Donald Trump’s primetime speech on election interference could create a political win for Arizona’s secretary of state. Our Friday NewsCap takes on that and the rest of the week’s top stories. Plus, is humidity more dangerous than Arizona’s famous dry heat?

Transcript

ANNOUNCER: KJZZ’s original production, The Show, is supported by Banner Health, Arizona’s largest nonprofit healthcare system. Last year, Banner reinvested more than $1.1 billion in community health and charity care. Banner Health, nonprofit for Arizona.bannerhealth.com/nonprofitforaz.

LAUREN GILGER: Hi, I’m Lauren Gilger, co-host of The Show, an original production from KJZZ. Every weekday, we bring you the latest news and culture from across the state. You can find much more at theshow.kjzz.org. Here’s today’s episode.

LAUREN GILGER: Good morning and welcome to the show here on KJZZ 91.5 in Phoenix. I’m Lauren Gilger. Coming up, why does the humidity outside make us all feel hotter? And our summer soapbox series continues with a road trip story about when nature calls.

But first, it’s time for our Friday news camp and some voices from the news this week.

ADRIAN FONTES: My message to Arizona voters is pay attention. Pay attention to the fact that this is the same grievance repackaged over and over and over again. Pay attention to the fact that there’s no credibility because there’s no facts here. There’s no proof here. All of these allegations are without any backup.

KATE BROPHY MCGEE: Have elections that nobody worries about, has anxiety attacks about, has to ask about, but make sure that their vote is counted.

DAN FREIBERG: Everywhere and everywhere we have went, it is the same result. The firefighters feel abandoned. They feel betrayed, and they feel pissed.

RUSSELL CONTRERAS: So, it’s not just where they stand on say taxes or abortion, it’s how they see themselves when they look in the mirror when people ask them on the streets, “What are you? What’s your ethnicity?”

ABE HAMEDEH: I’ve always said that America should be a little bit more like Arizona. See, Arizona, we haven’t changed our clocks in forever. So, I’m happy to vote on this piece of legislation.

LAUREN GILGER: This morning, I am joined by Sam Richard of Consilium Consulting. Morning, Sam.

SAM RICHARD: Great to be here.

LAUREN GILGER: As well as Barrett Marson of Marson Media.

BARRETT MARSON: Hello, radio world.

LAUREN GILGER: Thank you both for being here. All right, so let’s begin this morning with President Trump’s address last night to the nation, which brought up some familiar claims about vulnerabilities in our election system, election fraud in the 2020 election, interference from China.

This, of course, comes on the heels of this DOJ letter that was sent to Arizona Democratic Secretary of State Adrian Fontes, which is sort of threatening to prosecute election workers, maybe send election monitors to Arizona, as well. Should we be getting ready, Sam, for some real standoffs between local and federal officials on Election Day?

SAM RICHARD: I think that, in some respects, we already have seen the beginnings of that standoff. But I think that most of America is really seeing this as exactly what it is. These are wildly debunked conspiracy theories that the president tried to trot out in prime-time television last night, and people are mostly ignoring them.

So, the showdown really is going to be about the kind of institutional power of the federal government versus the reality that’s on the ground. And we do not have a single election. We have thousands of elections that happen all across the country. So, there’s really just so much misinformation and misdirection in what’s happening right now.

So I think the standoffs are inevitable, but I think that there’s one side that is a circus and there’s one side that’s fighting to protect democracy. And that is nonpartisan. It transcends partisanship, that conversation.

BARRETT MARSON: And hopefully the monitors do come to Arizona and they see that — while, of course, nothing is ever perfect — they see that Arizona is a well-run state when it comes to elections. We have 15 counties, 15 election officers and 15 essentially different elections, plus all the other jurisdictions that are within those elections. And so, those monitors can come and learn and hopefully export how well we do here to the rest of the country.

LAUREN GILGER: Let’s talk about Adrian Fontes and his role here. We’ve seen him really push back on the DOJ’s claims and demands and threats, and also last night, push back on what the president had to say from the White House. I mean, is this a moment for him to shine in this realm essentially, Sam?

SAM RICHARD: I think the quick and simple answer is yes, but I think I’ll expand on that and say that I think that this is something that he has been shining on for a very, very long time. His time as county recorder precedes his work as secretary of state. He has been a stalwart defender of democracy throughout his entire life, both as an elected official but also as a private citizen.

So, he was really built for this moment, and I think that Arizonans are grateful to have such a strong defender in that role. And I’m personally grateful, as well as professionally grateful that hopefully we’ll have some more elections that I can work as a part of in the future because we need to protect our electoral process.

BARRETT MARSON: Yeah, and look, definitely glad we don’t have an election denier in that office. That’s a positive thing. But Fontes, Secretary Fontes has gone too far in some of his advocacy and some of his policies, and he’s been struck down, he’s been slapped down by the courts on those things.

But generally speaking, he’s not an election denier, and therefore, the guy running our elections is, well, I guess, more sane than some of the people in my party.

LAUREN GILGER: Let’s move then to Maricopa County, another election-related story this week. The Maricopa County Board of Supervisors officially struck a deal with County Recorder Justin Heap after a very long and very, very contentious battle in court and elsewhere over, essentially, who gets to control what parts of elections in the biggest and one of the, maybe, swingiest counties in the country. And this is time is of the essence here, right, Barrett?

BARRETT MARSON: Absolutely, we are in an election right now. And, of course, then in just a few months, early two and a half months, early ballots are going to go out for the November election, a very important election, of course, though we won’t have a Senate or presidential candidate for the first time since literally 2016 a race there. So, but it’s still, you have a lot of races that are going to decide the control of the Legislature, Congress will certainly, control of Congress could run right through Arizona.

But the Supreme Court, the trial court and Supreme Court ended up siding with Justin Heap, the recorder. And yet, he then made a deal with the county. He literally gave up some of the things that he had gotten in court in his deal with the county Board of Supervisors, sort of inexplicably, but apparently, he’s very happy to take lesser duties than what was given to him by the court.

LAUREN GILGER: Yeah, let me ask you about this, Sam, because this was interesting in terms of who won here, right? Because Justin Heap did officially win on the Supreme Court level, had this 12-point plan, and then in the end, you’re looking at this deal and he has ceded some of those things back, including things like some early ballot tabulation, which the Supreme Court had given to his office and he has basically given back.

BARRETT MARSON: And that’s a huge, I don’t know, concession, I guess. He didn’t want to do that. That’s a difficult job, and he didn’t want to do it. So, Justin got everything that he wanted in this new MOU essentially, or new agreement with the county board. He got everything that he actually wanted.

So now, everything’s kind of on him and for early ballots, early voting sites and things like that, that’s going to be all on him. And we’ll see how he performs in November.

SAM RICHARD: And I would say that I think the one of the winners, and I don’t want to be too cute about this, but I think the real winner here is the voters in Maricopa County, that we can largely put this debacle behind us, move forward, and have a safe and secure election, that we can trust the process, we can trust the results.

We were going to, going into that, but this needless squabble leading into it really put some of those questions in balance. So, I think the biggest winner here are the voters of Maricopa County. And I look forward to seeing those smooth lines work through and all of the processes come through as we work towards the primary in just a couple weeks.

LAUREN GILGER: So, I mean, Heap kind of campaigned on election denialism though, kind of like walking that line. And then, we have President Trump going on national television and kind of repeating these claims about election fraud. And Maricopa County, Arizona was at the center of a lot of that in 2020 and 2022. I mean, does all of this sort of undermine voter confidence, or suppress turnout at the very least?

SAM RICHARD: I think that’s the goal, or or at least one of the I don’t want to ascribe motives there, but I think that that’s absolutely one of the plausible efforts that the administration is doing to, in what likely is going to be an already depressed turnout, right? To Barrett’s point from earlier, it’s the first election cycle in 10 years that we don’t have a U.S. Senate or a presidential race at the top of the ticket. Historically, that does mean lower turnout. Lower turnout is going to benefit one party or the other.

And I think that keeping people from engaging in that process is perhaps one of the efforts of the administration. But I think that voters are smarter than that, and especially those here in Arizona.

BARRETT MARSON: Yeah. Well, we’ll see if voters are smarter than that. But you know, yeah, the turnout is going to be an interesting thing to watch. But what I’m going to really watch is those independents in the primary. They are pulling more Democratic ballots, even though there’s really no Democratic races up and down the ballot.

Sure, CD1 in the Scottsdale-North Phoenix area and maybe in Tucson there’s a couple of legislative races, but really, if you’re pulling a Democratic ballot in, say, Mesa or Peoria, there are really no races for you. They’re all one person running for each office. So, whereas there is every single statewide race is contested for the Republicans. You would think, I mean, that’s just the more exciting ballot.

LAUREN GILGER: Well, there are many more registered Republicans in the state as well, right? So, independents pulling Democratic ballots for this primary is notable, you think?

BARRETT MARSON: Oh, very notable. It’s very notable, and that’s the trend I’m going to watch most as an indicator of what’s going to happen come November.

SAM RICHARD: And some of these baseline trends somewhat align with ’22, where we saw an early kind of momentum swing from Democratic voters. That has since leveled out as folks have been tracking ballot returns, but I do think that there is much more energy, much more momentum on the Democratic side and you’re seeing that with the independents flipping.

I mean, no independents are pulling a Democratic ballot to vote for Hugh Lytle. So, I think that there really is an energy in that direction. This is going to be a change election, perhaps even a restoration to sanity election where we just want to be boring again. We don’t want to have to fight about the bedrock principles of democracy.

BARRETT MARSON: By the way, Sam, maybe with the inaugural reference to Hugh Lytle on KJZZ, in case your listeners do not know, he’s running for governor on the No Labels Party, or whatever, independent No Labels, who knows. But I’m sure he’s very happy with the name check today.

LAUREN GILGER: Yeah. Barrett, let’s jump in with this ballot measure, which was referred to the ballot by GOP lawmakers, that was designed to kind of undercut teachers’ unions. But now, it’s drawing the ire of police and firefighters who say that it’s broad language, and they’re worried it’s going to apply to them.

BARRETT MARSON: Right. And it’s not just undercut the teachers’ union, it’s really to end the teachers’ union. It would ban school districts from helping to collect the union dues as they do now. And so, the union would have to rely on just people sending them their $20 a month or whatever the number is.

But because it was so last-minute, slapdash, it may bring in firefighters and police unions, of which certainly the police unions are big supporters of Republicans. So they are wildly upset because this is an existential threat to them as well. And so much so that if a court does agree that it brings in those public safety unions, there will be a big push to change or modify or rescind that proposition from the ballot.

LAUREN GILGER: Right. We’ve seen Gov. Hobbs say that she’ll support bringing lawmakers back for a special session to get rid of this resolution. Matt Gress, Steve Montenegro, I think, on the other side saying that they would be supportive of coming back in to kind of clarify it, to make sure it doesn’t apply to police and fire. Could that happen, Sam?

SAM RICHARD: I think it’s very wide open right now. I think procedurally, of course, the governor can call everybody back to a special session, but we were kind of hypothesizing in the green room just before we came on air about kind of how the governor might do that, how you frame the question because what you call the Legislature back to do has to be just in that frame.

So, do you name the HCR? Do you talk about repealing certain ballot referrals? Or how you frame that is going to matter about what kind of conversations the Legislature can have in general.

But what I would also say, too, is I just I really, if you step back here, what I really love about this dialogue and conversation is that Republicans in the Legislature have now had to admit the collective bargaining does have value. We just don’t like it for everybody. We only want those in public safety and our brothers and sisters in the firefighters and police agencies across the state to be able to have that pathway to collective bargaining.

And I think if it’s good for one aspect of our set of employees, I think it should be good for everybody. So, I think that really, from a rhetorical standpoint or from a policy standpoint, Republicans in the Legislature really lost a lot of footing in really kind of being a trusted source of defending of all of that.

But I look forward to resolution one way or the other. If the ballot referral goes to the ballot, I think it will be soundly defeated because even though we are a right-to-work state, Arizonans support our brothers and sisters in unions, including public sector unions. So I look forward to some type of resolution one way or the other there.

BARRETT MARSON: Yeah. Well, what I’ll be interested to watch is Democrats don’t want to repeal and replace. They only want to repeal. And I don’t think Republicans will necessarily go along with that. So, that’s going to be what agreement can the governor and legislative leaders work out if, say, next month a court rules that indeed this does apply to the public safety unions, which I think there’s a pretty good argument to be made that it does.

LAUREN GILGER: So, the other question though, and I have more, but this is one, is will we see either of these groups, police or firefighter — particularly though police — pull support from any of the folks who are responsible for putting this measure?

BARRETT MARSON: You know, there’s a lot of police groups like Police Association, PLEA from Phoenix, the state troopers have endorsed a lot of Republican candidates, including (Senate President) Warren Peterson for attorney general. And it’s like well, if you really want to voice your displeasure over this ill-conceived measure, pull your endorsement. That’s the way you get their attention.

LAUREN GILGER: But you think it’ll happen?

BARRETT MARSON: No, I don’t think it’ll happen because I don’t think they have a real desire to see Kris Mayes, necessarily, win again. And so, they’re going to just dance with the guy who brought them, or who they brought.

And they won’t, but I think there is a lot of angst going on right now amongst public safety unions, including those that have endorsed prominent Republicans in the Legislature.

SAM RICHARD: Yeah, I think that if the referral goes to the ballot as is and the public safety unions do not adjust their endorsements, I think that there’s a serious question about their credibility in that vein. I do think there’s plenty of time to readjust.

I mean, everything kind of resets after the primary, so starting next week, if there is no action from the governor to call everybody back to a special session or legislative leaders don’t come to some type of agreement, I would hope to expect to see law enforcement associations rethink some of their endorsements. But I’m not holding out hope for that to happen.

BARRETT MARSON: I really don’t see anything happening until a court provides some sort of guidance. And then, you could see some upheaval.

LAUREN GILGER: Yeah. OK. Let’s move on and let’s talk about the McCains, obviously, a legacy political family in Arizona, but one that’s really shifted its allegiances since the rise of Donald Trump and the GOP. And now, MS Now is reporting that Cindy and Jimmy McCain are hosting a fundraiser for Democratic Gov. Katie Hobbs. And obviously, we saw Cindy McCain work under the Biden administration, not entirely a surprise in this sense, but I wonder what you think this says, Sam, about the sort of legacy of the McCains in Arizona?

SAM RICHARD: Yeah, I think it says quite a bit that it is news in itself. I mean, I think that in previous election cycles, both nationally and locally, certain aspects of the McCain family have split their decisions. I mean, even in my own family, not everybody around the Thanksgiving table votes the same way. So, I don’t think it’s all that newsy.

I also think that if you put it into the larger context, President Trump, who has given his total and complete endorsement to Congressman Andy Biggs, has shown no respect and no dignity to the McCain family at all. So, I would frankly be surprised if something like this weren’t to take place.

But I think that more than anything, people are making more of this than that it needs to be. I mean, Arizona has always been a place and Sen. McCain, in his political leadership, very much displayed this as a maverick. We don’t always align with our partisan identities, and I think that this is just the most recent example of someone who’s maybe playing against type.

But if you peel behind the curtain, Gov. Hobbs is the governor for all of Arizona, and she has a much shorter distance to get to the middle and even get some of those disaffected Republicans back across the aisle, and I think that’s what’s going to happen.

BARRETT MARSON: The one thing where, you know, I think Republicans are still smarting is the Biggs wing of the party has explicitly said, “McCains are not welcome, and their followers are not welcome in this party.” And so all right, you get kicked out of the party, you’re not going to beg to come back in. You’re going to support then the people who actually want to talk to you.

And so again, I’m not surprised that they are supporting Hobbs. Many of the members of the McCain family supported Kamala Harris or Joe Biden over the last two presidential elections, so it’s really not surprising. Meghan McCain came out and said she’s not voting for or supporting Katie Hobbs because, “I’m a conservative Republican,” she said.

SAM RICHARD: But she didn’t say that she was voting for Congressman Biggs.

BARRETT MARSON: No, she did not say she was voting for Biggs. Now you’re right, there is a difference. We might be looking at a Hugh Lytle voter.

LAUREN GILGER: All right. So, let’s talk about the governor’s race that’s kind of starting to take shape. The latest polling in the primary race for governor has Andy Biggs way out ahead of David Schweikert, we should say.

So it’s looking like we’re starting to see some kind of general election messaging from Hobbs and Biggs as we get closer to the finish line there. And Hobbs trying to paint Biggs as sort of a fringe no-vote on a lot of bipartisan votes in the House. Biggs is trying to argue that he can be and is bipartisan. What do you make of that, Barrett?

BARRETT MARSON: Well, first of all, Andy Biggs, since his first days in the Arizona Legislature, has been chairman of the No Caucus. The guy just loves to vote no. And he’s voted no on a lot of bills that are now going to come back to haunt him in a statewide election that isn’t just home to a bunch of red-meat-loving voters.

And so, he is going to have a bit of a hard time shedding some of his past votes on things like spousal rape, things like not requiring out-of-state sex offenders to register here in Arizona. And that is going to turn off suburban women left and right. And so, I think he’s got a pretty big hill to climb once the Hobbs TV machine and campaign truly heats up after next week.

SAM RICHARD: And I’ll note for listeners at home, that was the Republican consultant who just said all that. …

BARRETT MARSON: No, it’s going to be a problem. Andy Biggs has a long record and some of it not very glorious.

SAM RICHARD: Yeah, and I would say as well that Congressman Biggs has a record of small ideas, and we are at the moment where we need big thinking and big solutions for the future of Arizona. And I think that a second-term Gov. Hobbs gives voters of Arizona — and Arizonans across the state — a lot of confidence to battle on our behalf on the fights to come, whether that be our share of the Colorado River water, answering the call for continued economic development—we saw just a huge announcement from TSMC earlier this week—

BARRETT MARSON: Thank you, Doug Ducey, for that.

SAM RICHARD: — while we balance our power generation and power distribution needs and requirements as well in the state of Arizona. So, I think that we have a battle-tested governor in Governor Hobbs, and I think that she’s done everything to answer the question of whether or not she is worthy of folks’ vote for a second term.

BARRETT MARSON: I got to tell you, Lauren, at least I was being honest about my party.

LAUREN GILGER: Last question on this and quickly, but the comparison between Andy Biggs and Kari Lake, who Gov. Hobbs ran against last time around, is going to be kind of prevalent in this. Do you think he’s going to have to answer to that a lot?

BARRETT MARSON: Well, look, Andy Biggs is no Kari Lake, and that cuts both ways. You know, he cannot command a camera, TV camera, in any way close to what Kari Lake did.

Now, did that help her or hurt her? Well, every time she opened her mouth, I mean, Democrats would make clips of her speeches, so it did hurt her. But at least it got her name out there. I mean, she was ubiquitous.

Andy Biggs is not that flamethrower. He’s actually a conservative, unlike Kari Lake. He actually believes in conservative values. And he fits his district incredibly well. Whether he fits the entire state incredibly well is another story, and that’s the vulnerability that he has.

LAUREN GILGER: OK, let me ask you very quickly before I let you go because I think this is a talker and people are interested in this. The House just approved a permanent daylight saving time bill, right? Which means no one around the country would be turning back the clock just like us in Arizona. What do you think, Sam? Pro-daylight saving time, anti-daylight saving time? Where do you land on this?

SAM RICHARD: This is actually a very, very wedge issue for me, so I know that we only have a small amount of time to talk about it. But we have always been on Mountain Standard Time, and I’m looking forward to the fact where we always will be on Mountain Standard Time, and we never have to explain it to another —

BARRETT MARSON: Right. When when people from New York or D.C. want to do a call, they don’t get confused they won’t get confused about what time it is in Arizona anymore, which has been, exactly, a long time coming.

LAUREN GILGER: It happens more often than not, yeah. All right, well, leave it there. That is Barrett Marson of Marson Media, Sam Richard of Consilium Consulting joining us for the Friday news cap. Thank you both, appreciate it.

SAM RICHARD: Thank you.

BARRETT MARSON: Bye-bye.

LAUREN GILGER: That’s all for this week’s Friday NewsCap podcast. ...

LAUREN GILGER: Good morning. It’s the show here on KJZZ 91.5. I’m Lauren Gilger. Coming up in the next installment of our summer soapbox series, a long road trip with an impatient driver. But first, the monsoon season is in full swing here in Arizona. There’s rain outside across the valley today, and earlier this week, we saw our first real dust storm sweep across the city. Parts of the city got hit with a pretty big downpour, including at my house, and while it’s really cooling things off, the high today is just 93°, according to the National Weather Service, it’s also gotten things pretty sticky outside there this week. The humidity today, at last check, was 65%, and here in Arizona, we’re really used to a dry heat. So, what do we all need to know about this humidity? Here to tell us more is Erinanne Saffell, Arizona’s state climatologist emerita. Good morning, Erinanne. Thanks so much for coming on.

ERINANNE SAFFELL: Good morning.

LAUREN GILGER: OK, so I hear you like to watch the dew point more than the humidity levels. Tell us why.

ERINANNE SAFFELL: I absolutely do. And some folks out there probably are aware of the dew point, because that’s been talked about in Phoenix for decades. It’s one of the ways that we figure out how much moisture is in the atmosphere. So we use that dew point. It’s actually a temperature, and it’s measured all the time. So you can have dew point temperature measured on your weather station or on the Arizona weather stations. But it’s a way to figure out how much moisture there is in the atmosphere.

LAUREN GILGER: OK, so you like to look at that more than that humidity percentage, I read. OK. ... There’s also this measurement that I’ll see on my phone, right? That that says the actual temperature and then it’ll say like "feels like," this measurement, right? And that is probably very impacted by humidity, right?

ERINANNE SAFFELL: Yeah, so you’re probably getting the heat index, which is one way to kind of figure out how hot it is in the atmosphere. But the heat index doesn’t really work well for Arizona, because one of those things with that heat index is considering dew point temperature, and we’re usually pretty dry. So you can actually see sometimes that that heat index or that feels like might be even cooler than the actual air temperature, so it can be confusing.

LAUREN GILGER: Yeah. OK, so sometimes you might have, you know, a hot temperature outside and then it goes down with the rain, but the humidity goes up and it still feels hot, maybe just in a different way.

ERINANNE SAFFELL: Yeah, that’s kind of the way it is. Especially when we’re looking at what we’re experiencing this morning, isn’t it beautiful out there? ... So those clouds, one of the things with a thunderstorm is it cools temperatures down. That’s — it drops down that cold air from aloft, where those clouds were, and it brings that cooler air down where we are, so we’re all enjoying that right now.

LAUREN GILGER: Yeah. OK, so tell us the science behind this. Like, why do our bodies feel hotter when there’s more moisture in the air?

ERINANNE SAFFELL: Right. Yeah, that is one of the things that we want to assess when we’re dealing with, how safe people are, what’s the temperature outside, what does it feel like to your body. And that’s because your body wants to cool off by evaporation. And so if it’s really moist and sticky outside, or if you have a high dew point temperature, then your body can’t cool off as effectively. That’s one of the considerations that we want to take into account and help keep people safe.

LAUREN GILGER: Right. So when we think about heat safety, and you know, we’ve seen this rise in heat deaths here over the years, is it more, less dangerous when there’s humidity outside than when it’s dry and 110 or 115?

ERINANNE SAFFELL: It’s a mix, isn’t it? And so when we have those really hot temperatures, when we get the 110, 115 degrees, it is hot. It doesn’t matter what the dew point temperature is, it doesn’t matter what the humidity is, your body is still going to be hot.

And if your body can’t cool off effectively, then you’re at risk. So we want people to understand, go inside, make sure you watch for folks as well — older folks, younger folks, even your pets, we want to make sure that everyone has a safe place to be that’s cooler. Because being outside in our summer can be very, very hot.

LAUREN GILGER: Yeah. OK, so how does humidity affect the storms that we’re seeing right now and throughout this monsoon season? Is that is that something you watch for?

ERINANNE SAFFELL: Oh, absolutely. Well let’s go back to the dew point temperature, if you don’t mind. ... A little meteorology 101, if we will. So we’re measuring dew point temperature all the time when we’re launching the weather balloons. That’s telling us the dew point temperature all the way up in the atmosphere. So it’s giving us how much moisture we have in the atmosphere.

And so when we see those clouds, what they’re actually at is they’re reaching, or what we would say, they’re cooling to the dew point temperature. They’re saturating, they’re condensing. And so when we see that, we’ve reached that condensation point, then hopefully we can get those droplets to come out of that thunderstorm.

LAUREN GILGER: OK, OK. What else are you watching for when you’re watching these storms come in? I mean, obviously, we’re we’re seeing rain right now, there’s a flash flood warning in effect, lots of rain in the forecast. What’s on your radar?

ERINANNE SAFFELL: Right. Yeah ... looking at things to see whether or not we can get a storm. So we look at the moisture, which is how much water’s in the atmosphere, how high the dew point temperature is. We look at the instability, is that air going to rise and cool to the dew point temperature?

And then when it comes out of the sky, we have to pay attention to what it’s been like with our soils. For example, if you look outside today, you probably got some some rain today, and you look at your backyard and it’s probably saturated if you got some of that storm, which means the next storm that comes in, that water is not going to go into the ground, and instead, it’s going to run off.

So we want to pay attention to that because that’s very common when we start getting moisture, when we start getting thunderstorms, we can have more of that that flooding that can happen. So we want people to understand that.

The other thing that I think is important is those storms that we get can happen upstream from where we’re driving, and all of a sudden, here’s water in a channel that we may not even have known was going to happen. So we want everyone to be safe from that.

LAUREN GILGER: Yeah, OK, lots to watch for as we have a pretty effective monsoon season this time around. That is Erinanne Saffell, Arizona’s state climatologist emerita joining us. Erinanne, thank you so much for coming on the show, as always, appreciate it.

ERINANNE SAFFELL: Happy to help.

LAUREN GILGER: Good morning. It’s the show on KJZZ 91.5. I’m Lauren Gilger. Gas prices in Arizona continue to sit above the national average. AAA Arizona says a gallon of regular unleaded today goes for $4.16. That’s compared to $3.98 a gallon nationally. Local prices are up a bit over the past week and nearly a dollar higher than last year at this time. That’s led to a lot of conversation about whether this might lead more drivers to think about buying electric vehicles, even as federal tax credits have come to an end. John Heckman, a professor of practice at ASU and co-founder of the Transportation Electrification Activator, a consortium of utilities, cities, businesses, and NGOs, joined my co-host, Mark Brodie, back in April to talk more about it.

JOHN HECKMAN: I would say that maybe we’re at a plateau point. It’s something that has been growing for quite some time, and I would say the growth is continuing but it’s at a slower pace.

And so electrification, it’s a part of a long transition. We’re talking about something that’s maybe 10-20 years is what it’s going to take, and maybe we’re halfway through that. But it is continuing forward, but it has definitely taken a bit of a step backwards as some of the federal policy changes have happened.

MARK BRODIE: Yeah. How much of this comes down to sort of the economics and subsidies that are available both to buyers, potential buyers of EVs and the rest of the infrastructure?

JOHN HECKMAN: Yeah, I think most vehicle purchases are economic decisions. Very few of us are in a situation where we can just buy something on a whim. And so people are thinking that through pretty carefully.

And there was this federal tax incentive that was bringing a lot of people into the consideration of an EV that perhaps were not thinking about it before that. And so taking that away has changed the calculus.

What you see from the actual statistics of percentage of new car sales that are electric, it did dip a little bit in 2025, but it’s actually starting to come back. It has been growing for the past 10 years plus as far as the percentage that are electric. It is still growing. It’s growing perhaps at a slower rate.

MARK BRODIE: Will that continue do you think absent any other federal or state intervention?

JOHN HECKMAN: I totally think so. Yeah. I think that fundamentally incentives are always interesting, and they can help or hurt depending upon your perspective on it. But really we’re talking about really important products that are a really important part of people’s lives, and they make very careful decisions around those.

And the manufacturers need to make products which are compelling and people really want to buy at prices that they can afford. That’s what’s going to drive this. And really you are seeing that more than anything else. Lots of great models out there, lots of really interesting ones that are coming out, and the prices are actually coming down.

MARK BRODIE: It’s interesting because so many of the headlines have been automakers sort of moving away from EVs and maybe doing more hybrids or maybe more standard internal combustion engines. It sounds like what you’re saying is that there are still new models coming out and prices are coming down even though there are some automakers who are not following through on maybe the plans they had for EVs.

JOHN HECKMAN: Yeah, I think the narrative changed. Up into 2024, the narrative was that we are doing everything we can to bring out an electrified transportation system as soon as possible. And now we are back more to I guess what I would call a more natural innovation curve, a natural technology curve.

And so you’re still seeing new models, but maybe some of the efforts that the manufacturers were doing to try to keep up with that narrative. People are stepping back and saying “Well, let’s make sure that this is right for us. Let’s make sure that electric vehicles are an option amongst other technologies.” I think that’s where we are right now.

MARK BRODIE: When you say the transition might take 10 or 20 years, what do you think it looks like at the end of that?

JOHN HECKMAN: Underneath this transition, why am I so confident that this is something that is happening? There is a fundamental efficiency that is going on here where if you compare an EV that is powered by renewable energy, solar energy, versus an internal combustion gas car, you’re talking about five to eight times greater efficiency as far as energy that is getting to the wheels of that car.

And efficiency like that — if you go to engineering school, you’ll learn about efficiency — but it translates into money. And so this is a fundamentally lower cost mode of transportation.

Also one that has a lot of upsides: a lot of fun to drive, a really great integration with technology. And so at the end of the day I think that fossil fuel internal combustion will be a very small fraction of the market, perhaps 10 years from now.

MARK BRODIE: But do you think it will still continue to be a percentage of the market, even if it’s a small one?

JOHN HECKMAN: Yeah, I think it will be because they’re incredibly good at what they do. And there’s lots of situations — a lot of, again, the word use case — that are really performed incredibly well by an internal combustion vehicle, and it’ll be quite some time before the electric vehicles can do those. And so I think they will be a part of our economy for a long time.

MARK BRODIE: So, in terms of the transition, you talked about having enough models and having enough price points, I’m wondering about the actual infrastructure, right? Like if you are somebody who needs to charge your vehicle you know at work or you know along the highway because you’re driving from Phoenix to San Diego or LA or something, where are we on that?

JOHN HECKMAN: Yeah, it’s a really important part of it and it’s something that is new compared to a gas-powered transportation system. We had to build out the system of gasoline stations a hundred years ago, and now we’re having to build out that system for charging.

It is being built out quite quickly but it’s still not quickly enough in certain areas. But like in 2025 we had three times as much publicly available chargers installed as 2024. So the pace is increasing substantially.

MARK BRODIE: Do you see a bump in interest in EVs at a time like this when gas is approaching or at $5 a gallon?

JOHN HECKMAN: I think yes. We said vehicles are economic components of our lives, and so when the price of fuel goes, up we think about “Well jeez, how can we deal with this?” Electricity is not for free, but electricity is something that you have some ability to influence.

The price of electricity is really around time and when you’re using that. And that’s something that many people have the ability to influence: when they charge. And that’s a way for you to have a substantially lower cost to fuel an EV compared to an internal combustion car.

MARK BRODIE: Does that calculus change at all though with energy prices continuing to rise as well and concerns about like do we have enough energy for all this stuff we’re doing in this city?

JOHN HECKMAN: Yeah, and if you think about the electrical grid itself, you know transportation electrification is one component of this overall electrification trend. And we also live in a state that is incredibly fast growing. We have a population growth, we got a lot of new industries coming in. And so there is a lot of demand on our electrical grid.

And I think our utilities are very focused on this space. Again the utilities are focused on time, total load but also time of load or time of demand. And so that’s one of the reasons that they think of EVs as a beneficial load is because it’s something that can shift its time.

MARK BRODIE: Is that to say that it really only becomes a problem if people are trying to charge their electric vehicles at like 4 in the afternoon in July?

JOHN HECKMAN: Exactly right. Exactly right. And in fact you already are seeing some changes into the price plans for that.

MARK BRODIE: You mentioned that the Valley and Arizona have kind of hit this plateau where there’s growth but it’s slower growth than what it was before. How does that compare to other places? Like either other cities and states sort of in our neighborhood or the rest of the country?

JOHN HECKMAN: Arizona is first of all, it’s in the top 10 of states in the U.S. as far as the percentage of new cars sold that are electric. And that is for a state, Arizona, that is not what’s called a ZEV state, a zero emission vehicle state. That’s the California law. And so most if not all the other states that are in that top 10 have some very specific regulatory driver that’s pushing in that direction.

So that’s showing that the demand is here. People are asking for that. And so you’re seeing maybe about 10% of new vehicle sales here in Arizona are electric, and that’s a little bit ahead of the national average.

MARK BRODIE: All right. That is John Heckman, a professor of practice at ASU and co-founder of the Transportation Electrification Activator. John, thanks so much.

JOHN HECKMAN: Thanks for having me.

LAUREN GILGER: We’ve all been there. Long road trip, someone else is driving, and nature calls. Phoenix writer Barbara VanDenburgh remembers that well in our latest soapbox essay on the theme, road trip.

BARBARA VANDENBURGH: The views out the passenger side window were beautiful. We took a winding path through the majestic vistas of the red rock mountains and grand plateaus of northern Arizona. Big, puffy clouds cast rich purple shadows on the vast earth, no civilization (and no bathrooms) as far as the eye could see.

It would have taken my breath away if only I didn’t have to pee so badly.

We were a few hours into our drive from Phoenix to Provo, Utah. I was assigned the trip’s DJ but had forgotten my CD case at home, and now we were stuck listening to Vince Gill, who was warbling about domestic squabbles and tractors when my guts clenched.

My eyes darted to gas gauge. I was determined to hold it until we stopped for gas. It was a Mustang, not exactly known for fuel efficiency. How long could it possibly take?

But time moves differently on the bladder’s clock.

My best friend’s mother had warned me about this when she’d picked me up at dawn. “Did you go to the bathroom?” she’d asked as I ducked into her cherry-red muscle car.

“Yes,” I’d lied.

“I hate stopping on road trips,” she’d said, taking a theatrical sip of Mountain Dew from her comically large Big Gulp. “I don’t want you bugging me to stop.”

She was imposing for a 4-foot-something Mormon mother of six, a former farm girl who regaled us with stories over dinner about how she grew up eating cow brains.

I was nervous to spend 10 hours alone with her — and just as nervous to be reunited with my best friend after months apart. It was disorienting, to be nervous of the person with whom you once felt most at home. We’d danced in a movie theater parking lot singing songs from “Moulin Rouge,” for God’s sake.

I was 20 then, living with my parents, lonely and lost as I’d ever been. She didn’t seem lost, though. A path had been provided for her that she embraced. It had taken her to Provo. Soon it would take her on a mission to a place too far away for road trips, and eventually out of my life. I was too young to know that most friendships don’t last forever, even those built on a foundation of mutual attraction to Ewan McGregor.

“You forgot to go this morning, didn’t you?”

Lost in thought, I’d been squirming in my seat, hands clasped to my belly. I nodded sheepishly. “I’m sorry,” I said.

She threw up her hands, eyes scanning for the next exit. “You forgot to pee, you forgot the CDs! What, did you forget your underwear, too?”

We pulled over at the first gas station, my friend’s mom topping off the tank and refilling her Big Gulp as I emptied mine. But as I walked back to the car, a new pain was twisting in my gut, an awful realization.

I had, as it turned out, indeed forgotten my underwear. My friend would get a kick out of that.

LAUREN GILGER: Thanks for listening to the show’s podcast. The show is produced by Sativa Peterson, Nick Sanchez, Amber Victoria Singer, Athena Ankrah, and Ayana Hamilton. The show was created by John Hoban and our executive producer is Amy Silverman. You can find more of the show and sign up for our newsletter at theshow.kjzz.org. You can also find us on Instagram at @kjzztheshow.

dcast at podcast.kjzz.org. I’m Lauren Gilger, thanks for listening.