The Show for Sept. 25, 2026: Friday NewsCap, a forgotten aviation pioneer and more

The candidates for attorney general sparred in a debate over their qualifications and priorities. Our Friday NewsCap panelists analyze that and the rest of the week’s top stories. Plus, a new book explores the life of a forgotten early aviator.

Transcript

ANNOUNCER: KJZZ’s original production The Show is supported by Banner Health, Arizona’s largest nonprofit healthcare system. Last year, Banner reinvested more than $1.1 billion in community health and charity care. Banner Health, nonprofit for Arizona. bannerhealth.com/nonprofitforaz.

MARK BRODIE: Hi, I'm Mark Brodie, co-host of The Show, an original production from KJZZ. Every weekday, we bring you the latest news and culture from across the state. You can find much more at theshow.kjzz.org. Here's today's episode.

MARK BRODIE: Good morning, it's The Show on KJZZ 91.5 in Phoenix. I'm Mark Brodie. Coming up, a new documentary investigates an unsolved Phoenix murder from more than two decades ago. And we'll meet one of the contestants from this season of Big Brother. But first, it's time for the Friday NewsCap and some voices from the news this week.

ANDY BIGGS: We will support development of new nuclear power in Arizona. We will end state incentives for data centers and establish standards that will protect Arizona water and energy.

KRIS MAYES: Being a lawyer for all of the people of Arizona means taking on big fights, and that is what I have done.

WARREN PETERSEN: Those that are paying attention to what Kris Mayes has been doing for the last four years know that her top two priorities are political lawfare and environmental radicalism.

NICK MANSOUR: We have lost out on $3.6 billion over the last 13 years. Instead of being $11 billion, this could be $15 billion fund today.

ELIJAH NORTON: You have to be safe first, and he is continuing to espouse policies that could really hurt our state and cut funding to education or taxes if the investments go the wrong way. I don’t want to see that happen.

MARK KELLY: I’m not going to decide until after this election because I do really believe we need to be focused on this, but I’m thinking about it. Gabby gets a big say in this. So do my kids.

YASSAMIN ANSARI: This type of AI, frontier AI that is becoming so advanced, is essentially becoming a new species. And as it develops and it continues to teach itself, I think that we need to take it very seriously...

MARK BRODIE: And with me to talk about a pair of debates, a special counsel being hired in a legislative investigation, and more, are Chip Scutari of S+C Communications. Chip, good morning.

CHIP SCUTARI: Good morning. Happy Friday.

MARK BRODIE: Happy Friday. And Stacy Pearson of Lumen Strategies. Stacy, good morning to you.

STACY PEARSON: Good morning.

MARK BRODIE: So, Chip, we saw this week that state Sen. Jake Hoffman, who last week, I believe it was, announced that he was launching an investigation into the Sunshine Residential case, the so-called pay-to-play scheme — he’s alleging there’s some improprieties there with Gov. Katie Hobbs.

He says that he’s now moving it to a different committee. His committee is not going to handle it, and he’s hiring a special counsel, former State Supreme Court Justice and Attorney General candidate Andrew Gould, to run that. Are you surprised that he stepped aside from it? Because it seems like kind of not his MO to like to back away from things.

CHIP SCUTARI: No, as a former Capitol reporter who covered governors’ races and issues like this, the optics were just so bad. It didn’t pass the smell test. His company, I think it’s called 110 LLC, had received more than $1 million, I think in total $2.7 million from Turning Point USA, to go after Gov. Hobbs and also her attorney general, Kris Mayes. So this really didn’t pass the smell test. I think they were forced to shift it from his committee to the Appropriations Committee.

And the other thing, the hiring of Andrew Gould, the former Arizona Supreme Court Justice — what I haven’t seen is, you know, follow the money. I haven’t seen if the State Senate, if they must be using public money to hire Andrew Gould, who’s probably not going to do this for free. So if there’s been a story I haven’t seen, but if there’s taxpayer dollars going into this so-called investigation, let’s put the cards on the table.

The other thing is, because this is the state Senate, what is Senate President Warren Petersen’s role in this, if any, who’s running for Attorney General against Kris Mayes?

So the context being, the landscape, we’re going to have early ballots in our mailboxes in probably about two weeks, a little more than two weeks. So this, they were hoping for the Republicans, this is a twofer. You can go after AG Kris Mayes, you can go after Gov. Katie Hobbs. So they were hoping this would be their October surprise, but I don’t think it’s panning out that way.

MARK BRODIE: Well, and Stacy, when Sen. Hoffman announced this, he was very adamant that, you know, “It is not political theater,” I think was the question, and his response for him to be doing this, and that it was not inappropriate for him to be leading this investigation given, as Chip said, the amount of money that he’s been getting on behalf of Andy Biggs. What changed?

STACY PEARSON: He had to have had worms in his brain when he said this wasn’t an issue, that he was not conflicted. To Chip’s point, he was running a campaign against the seated governor, against the incumbent.

And the hypocrisy is not lost on voters of Arizona that this is a Donald Trump worshiper talking about potential impropriety? I mean, we’ve got a guy whose son had a wedding reception paid for by the Russians. I mean, this is absolutely insane, and it’s certainly not sticking to the governor and it’s not an issue in front of voters.

MARK BRODIE: Well, so Chip, the hearing that Sen. Hoffman was going to hold was originally scheduled, I think, for next week. You mentioned maybe this isn’t the October surprise Republicans think it might be, like, it seems unlikely, maybe, given the amount of testimony that they want to take and how long it took the attorney general to get through this, and the auditor general is still working on this, on their investigation with the help of the Maricopa County attorney. Like, are you expecting anything to come of this before Election Day?

CHIP SCUTARI: No, I think they just want to get more headlines out of it. As of yesterday, as far as I was told, I don’t think Sunshine Residential had been subpoenaed. I don’t know if the Governor’s Office or anyone else has been subpoenaed. So to do this type of investigation would take, to do it the right way, would take way more time than just two or three weeks.

So I don’t know if it’s going to proceed or not. So we’ll be paying attention to see what the next turn of the screw is. But it’s a very short timeline, and I don’t know if this is going to help Andy Biggs out in the long run.

MARK BRODIE: Well, Stacy, I guess to the extent that, you know, we’re still talking about it today, we talked about it last week, that’s probably not a horrible thing for someone like Andy Biggs.

STACY PEARSON: Well, it’s also not a horrible thing for the governor. I mean, this is, the fundamental premise, the original story that broke this news was wrong. The accusation was that a contribution made to the Arizona Democratic Party was in trade for something that Sunshine Residential needed. It was an increase in their rates.

The state party and the governor are so far apart that the entire operation, the coordinated campaign, is going through the Navajo County party. So the fundamental premise that a contribution to Organization A helps the governor over here is wrong!

MARK BRODIE: Optically, though. I mean, when you talk about the optics of Jake Hoffman, the optics of this were not good for the governor.

STACY PEARSON: There is nothing there there. Fundamentally, there is nothing there. And that’s that’s the issue. And voters are aware of that. They can see it. There is nothing there.

CHIP SCUTARI: You know, Mark, I think we’ll know if this is really resonating, if it’s hitting a chord, if we see the RGA, the Republican Governors Association, or other Republican-aligned PACs start pumping money and doing ads on this. If they see an opening where, you know, Andy Biggs, who’s down almost every poll you’ve seen —

STACY PEARSON: His internals, even.

CHIP SCUTARI: Yeah, yeah. So if he starts closing the gap because of this issue, or if the RGA or other powerful PACs see this working, you’ll see ads, and that’s the telltale sign if this is working.

MARK BRODIE: That could be an interesting metric.

So Chip, let me stick with you. Andy Biggs outlined some of his priorities for the beginning of his term should he win in November. Among them was something that Republican governors have talked about for probably as long as you’ve been at the State Capitol, in terms of getting rid of the state income tax. We heard him just a few moments ago talking about ending tax incentives for data centers, expanding more nuclear power, things like that. What did you make of the priorities that he laid out?

CHIP SCUTARI: Well, first of all, I hate to go sound so superficial, but politics is all about the art of showmanship. And after covering a ton of Capitol press conferences — including during gubernatorial races — I was kind of disappointed. If you’re a Biggs fan or you’re in his campaign. That crowd there was pretty sparse. So you take that first, it didn’t look like a winning campaign. So that’s one thing. I know that’s superficial, but it matters.

And then the other thing about eliminating the state income tax, that was pulled right out of the Doug Ducey playbook from 2014 when he ran. And it’s a very pre-Trump kind of a maneuver by Republicans. Trump has not talked really about a lot about public policy, it’s more about culture wars and grievances. So that is one from the kind of 1980s Reagan playbook.

And if you really dig down and do a deep dive, if we eliminate our state income tax, that’s like a third of our budget. So where is that money going to come from? So that’s a big deal. Maybe it still will bring back the loyal Republicans to him, but it’s kind of an empty promise that sounds good, but there’s not a lot of meat and potatoes behind it.

MARK BRODIE: Well, it’s kind of interesting, Stacy, as Chip said, that was kind of like a — I hate to call it old school — but like a pre-Trump Republican promise. But then he also talked about getting rid of, for example, tax incentives for data centers, which is something that Democrats —

STACY PEARSON: Has already been done.

MARK BRODIE: Well, they paused it for a few years.

STACY PEARSON: Yeah, there’s a moratorium, right.

MARK BRODIE: There’s a moratorium, but the governor wanted to eliminate it, a lot of legislative Democrats wanted to eliminate it, but legislative Republicans did not. So it’s a little bit of an interesting mix here.

STACY PEARSON: Yeah, look, at this point Andy Biggs doesn’t have a single poll that shows him ahead, not internal, not external. The RGA is not investing in his race, so clearly national groups do not deem him a potential threat to the incumbent, to unseat the incumbent in Katie Hobbs. So this guy’s blowing in the wind. I mean, he’s trying to find something to say or do that shows proof of life for his campaign, and this isn’t it. It’s just, it’s just not it.

MARK BRODIE: Do you get the sense that eliminating the income tax was in any way a response to all of the ads that we’ve been seeing on TV about how he supports tax hikes?

STACY PEARSON: Well, the fact that he is talking about tariffs and tax hikes out of two sides of his mouth, absolutely. Eliminating a state income tax, to Chip’s point, is devastating to the state’s economy. It’s devastating to DPS. You want to defund the police? Eliminate the state’s income tax.

I mean, people understand that you pull this thread and other things come down, too. And so we’re talking about, we have an underfunded education system, and an underfunded university system, underfunded — we’ve got DPS facilities that are crumbling that haven’t been renovated in half a century. And we need tax money to pay for these things, and certainly voters understand that, too.

CHIP SCUTARI: And it’s got to be frustrating for the Republicans. Katie Hobbs pulled something out of the Bill Clinton playbook with her ads saying she’s cut taxes every year, when people know who follow the Capitol, she vetoed a lot of those tax cut bills. But when push comes to shove, she did it. So she’s doing the game of triangulation where she’s taking the Republicans’ best talking point, tax cuts, and using it for herself, which is brilliant, but I’m sure it’s very frustrating for Republicans who deem themselves the real tax cutters.

MARK BRODIE: Chip, do you think that the proposals that Andy Biggs laid out this week, will those help? Will those resonate with voters who maybe were on the fence?

CHIP SCUTARI: I don’t think so. I just don’t think. And the other thing that was not good for him, and again going back to campaign style, is when he kind of got snippy with reporters and didn’t want to answer questions towards the end of the press conference. It’s like, if you’re losing, you have to take every chance, every opportunity to engage with the media and the Republic to just show your personality, to show why people should vote for you. And that to me just was not good form.

MARK BRODIE: Let's take a quick break. Chip Scutari, I'm also joined by Stacy Pearson. I'm Mark Brodie. In Phoenix, Friday NewsCap continues in just a moment.

MARK BRODIE: Good morning, it's the Friday NewsCap on KJZZ 91.5. I'm Mark Brodie. My guests this week are Stacy Pearson of Lumen Strategies and Chip Scutari of S&C Communications. Stacy, let me ask you about the candidates for Attorney General. They had their Clean Elections debate this week, Kris Mayes on the Democratic side and Warren Petersen on the Republican side. I was going to maybe use a few adjectives to describe it, but I'd much rather hear yours.

Stacy, let me ask you about the candidates for Attorney General. They had their Clean Elections debate this week: Kris Mayes on the Democratic side, and Warren Petersen on the Republican side. I was going to maybe use a few adjectives to describe it, but I’d much rather hear yours.

STACY PEARSON: That was wild. So, it was a masterclass by Attorney General Mayes in how to exploit your opponent’s weaknesses. I mean, he was, I think the best way to describe him was ill-prepared. I mean, the fumbling through his notes and the bizarre obsession on the timer, and him describing a woman as being too emotional for the job.

I can’t. I wish I was watching a focus group watching that debate, particularly Republican women, because his approach was so strange that I think it cost him.

MARK BRODIE: All right, Chip. Stacy described it as wild. How would you describe it?

CHIP SCUTARI: You know, I’m going to sound like a political nerd here and take a little bit of a different tack. I thought it was, you know, at times it was contentious and snarky, but there is good newsy exchanges between both candidates. And I know they got into some raw political stuff, but as a voter, I enjoyed the debate. I thought the debate moderators did a fantastic job.

The one thing that comes out, whether this objective, just looking at it, is Attorney General Kris Mayes is the incumbent, but she’s not playing the prevent defense or afraid to lose. Like, one thing I think Republicans even admit behind closed doors is she’s a fighter and she’ll attack. And she never let up on Warren Petersen.

I think Petersen probably did better than most people thought he would. But I thought it was a very good debate. But one thing, you know, Attorney General Mayes comes out as very confident, very assertive, and she’s not, you know, the one thing you’ll say about her, she will not back down from a fight.

MARK BRODIE: I wonder, in that office specifically, is that more of an asset than it would be maybe if she was running for something else?

CHIP SCUTARI: Totally, because you want to be, you know, the state’s top cop, chief law enforcement officer. You have to have a little bit of that swag whether you’re a man or a woman, and she has that in droves. And I think that probably plays well with a lot of independents, with probably a lot of moderate Republicans.

MARK BRODIE: Stacy, do you think that this debate will sway anybody? Like, anybody who was like tuning in to maybe figure out who they wanted to vote for, does it change anybody’s mind one way or the other?

STACY PEARSON: Oh, I think it solidifies people’s opinions, right? I think if folks were unsure or looking just to make sure things don’t change, this actually gives them a reason to vote for her. I mean she really performed well. She won by a couple hundred votes, so she actually needs to pick up votes given the Republican registration advantage, and that performance certainly did. The moderate Republicans have a place to support, a person to support, someone to support.

And the lawsuits, there were lots of criticisms of how many lawsuits she’s filed against the administration. She wins 85%, what was the number? Eighty-plus percent of those.

And we’re really talking about some fundamental democracy issues. I mean, she filed suit against the Trump administration when they wanted access to our voter records. My husband’s are redacted. Like, they were trying to turn over my husband’s information, which is redacted by way of a law enforcement protection. She was fighting for that. These things matter. Those details matter.

CHIP SCUTARI: You know, the other tidbit that was interesting was Warren Petersen, for the first time as far as I know, admitted that Joe Biden won the 2020 presidential election, which is, sounds weird to say, but him and now Jay Feely, they’ve clearly — it’s a telltale sign that they’re not afraid that they’re going to upset President Trump. So people are trying to, Republicans are trying to distance themselves from the election denialism because it must not be polling well.

MARK BRODIE: Yeah, that is interesting. So Chip, let me stick with you moving down the ballot just a tiny bit. The candidates for State Treasurer also had their Clean Elections debate this week. And I wonder, moving beyond sort of like the difference, because there were some substantive differences about investment strategies and, you know, there’s some questions about who’s been sued for what and how that matters.

There’s been so much talk about this being a good year for Democrats. I wonder, like, is treasurer too downballot for that to reach? Or do you think there’s a chance that, let’s say the Democrats at the top of the ticket do well, does that reach down to treasurer?

CHIP SCUTARI: Well, I’ll let Stacy give us a tutorial on investment strategies. What I can say is —

STACY PEARSON: Bet on black.

CHIP SCUTARI: We’ll see how strong this supposed blue wave is. And if the generic ballot for Democrats is that much stronger against Republicans, it could pick up a treasurer’s race, which would be incredible. I do have to say, the “Pick Nick” campaign signs for the Democratic candidate is pretty good. But this will be, this is a test, this and the state superintendent race. If they win, this is going to be a big blue wave for the Democrats. I mean, it’s a telltale sign.

MARK BRODIE: All right Stacy, stocks and bonds, what do you think? No, I’m just kidding. How far do you —

STACY PEARSON: Also cover the greens. These are, yeah, these are sound investment strategies. But what I find most fascinating about this treasurer’s race is, for the first time in my lifetime, Democrats in polling are considered stronger on the economy than the Republicans. This has never—

MARK BRODIE: Nationally.

STACY PEARSON: Nationally. Has never happened in my lifetime in politics. So that correlation with the treasurer’s race certainly gives Nick Mansour a leg up. I mean, folks are extremely frustrated. We’re talking about a Teamsters strike on the horizon potentially. I mean, they were the first to endorse Trump. So it is the over $7 a gallon diesel prices. I mean, this, the economy right now was always a nice, big checkmark in the Republican box, and it’s not anymore.

CHIP SCUTARI: And I think the Democrats were fortunate once again that Elijah Norton won the primary. I think he ran against a much more competent —

STACY PEARSON: The GOP primary.

CHIP SCUTARI: The GOP primary. He ran against a much more competent candidate who I liked, I thought should do a good job. So that’s playing in the Democrats’ favor, too, because he had some negative, some kind of nasty stuff at the end of his GOP primary.

MARK BRODIE: All right. So we’ve been talking a lot about the election coming up this year, but let's talk for just a couple minutes as we wrap up about the election coming up in two years, which will be a presidential race. It seems like Mark Kelly can’t go 30 seconds without somebody asking him if he’s going to run for president.

He was asked again this week, and basically he said, “You know, I’m still thinking about it, but I will make a decision after the midterms,” which is, you know, what you’d kind of expect. He said his wife, Gabby Giffords, will have a say, his kids — we just heard him say this — his kids will have a say in it.

Stacy, I mean, let's talk, you talked about playing, you know, betting on black, playing the odds here. Where do you put the odds of him running for president in two years?

STACY PEARSON: Oh, I certainly hope he does. It’s good for Arizona. He was thoroughly vetted as a vice presidential candidate.

MARK BRODIE: Even in that compressed window, you think?

STACY PEARSON: Correct. I mean, the name ID is impressive, certainly his career is extraordinary. We really, really need someone in the White House who has served next to figure out how to get us out of this quagmire that is Iran. I mean, there are so many things that Mark Kelly has going for him, that Sen. Kelly has going for him. I certainly hope he’s on the shortlist.

MARK BRODIE: What do you think, Chip?

CHIP SCUTARI: Yeah, I think there’s no downside for him to keep his name out there. He’s in the top echelon of all the candidates, if not, he could be a heck of a VP candidate with his national security credentials. And President Trump and Secretary Hegseth, Secretary of Defense Hegseth going after him for the video he did along with some of his Democratic colleagues, really raised his profile. They did him a big favor. And he’s a fundraising machine.

MARK BRODIE: Yeah, I mean, people have talked about him having presidential-level fundraising in the past. I mean, do you get the sense that that is what the Democratic Party is looking for right now, though, Stacy? Because we keep seeing, you know, sort of the left wing, the more progressive wing of the party — he’s not that.

STACY PEARSON: He’s not. But neither is the country, right? We see progressive candidates winning in progressive places, and that’s fantastic. We’re talking about New York City, right? That doesn’t make any sense in Iowa. …

MARK BRODIE: But he’s got to get through a primary.

STACY PEARSON: He does, and that’s OK. Look at the Arizona candidates. Half of them were former Republicans on a statewide ticket in a red state. The beauty of our party right now is we’re actually building bigger tents, and lots of independents and moderate Republicans are coming in.

CHIP SCUTARI: Yeah, his biggest test will be the primary, because if he’s not progressive enough, he’s not a socialist-DSA candidate, that will be his biggest struggle. But I believe that in 2028, 2032, America’s not going to elect a progressive president.

MARK BRODIE: If it’s a Democrat, you think it has to be a more moderate type.

CHIP SCUTARI: If it’s a Democrat, I think it has to be the centrist Bill Clinton-type Democrat to retake the White House.

MARK BRODIE: OK, so very quickly before we wrap up, Chip, I’m going to put you on the spot. Do you think Kelly runs?

CHIP SCUTARI: I do.

MARK BRODIE: Do you think he runs?

STACY PEARSON: I hope so.

MARK BRODIE: OK, that’s not a yes or no, but I’ll let you have that. All right. Stacy Pearson, Chip Scutari, thanks to you both. I really appreciate it.

STACY PEARSON: Thank you.

CHIP SCUTARI: Thank you.

MARK BRODIE: Good morning, it's The Show on KJZZ 91.5. I'm Mark Brodie. Coming up, we'll hear from one Valley contestant on the current season of Big Brother just after he was voted off the show.

But first, most of us have heard of aviators like Charles Lindbergh and Amelia Earhart, but most of us have probably not heard of another pilot of that era named Lester Maitland. A new book sheds light on his life and career, including his time spent in the Valley. It's called "Stone Age Astronaut: The Astonishing Adventures of America's Forgotten Flyer." Liam Callanan is a professor of creative writing at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee and the book's author. He'll be talking about it on Sunday in Phoenix. He joins me and, Liam, let's start with who was Lester Maitland?

LIAM CALLANAN: Lester Maitland was a rather extraordinary person from early days of aviation. He flew to Hawaii just a few weeks after Lindbergh flew to France. They were almost equally famous at the time. They both went to the White House together to be honored, but then Maitland slipped from view and has never been heard of since. And I argue it's because some interesting twists and turns his life took.

MARK BRODIE: OK, so let's talk about some of those twists and turns because, as you say, he was equally as famous as Charles Lindbergh for a time. So like, what happened?

LIAM CALLANAN: I'm not sure, exactly. In some ways, I think it's a story about fame. Lindbergh was actually flying in a contest to get to Paris first, and so it was all about the publicity, whereas Maitland was flying at the behest of the Army to prove that you could fly from the west coast of the United States to the Hawaiian Islands without stopping, which the Navy had tried before.

And so, I think because it was a military achievement as opposed to a publicity one, that might be why they faded from the register. But it might also be because Maitland took a different path. He was, he went back to testing airplanes in the 1930s. He was something of a daredevil pilot, then he wound up in World War II as the, perhaps the oldest bomber pilot in Europe at the time.

Then was relieved of command for mysterious reasons in 1943, came home, worked in the civil service of Wisconsin and Michigan, and then around age 50, and this may be why his story is so quiet, he became, he decided he'd, I think quote, "done enough bombing in his life and wanted to do good." So he became an Episcopal priest and he lived to be deep into his 90s, and so he was, he had almost a 40-year career as an Episcopal priest.

MARK BRODIE: Huh. Did it seem as though he felt like he had to make amends in some way, or something like that, for what he was doing while he was a pilot, in terms of why he why he turned to religion?

LIAM CALLANAN: It's hard to say, and I put together a few different scenarios in the book. One thing that he did do was he witnessed the atomic bomb test in Nevada, and I think that really took him back. The bombing that he'd seen before was from the cockpit of an airplane, but then to be on the ground and see the danger that atomic weapons posed, I think it really took him not by surprise, but it took his breath away, and he was really taken with that.

And so he told people that, like, things had changed for him after that. In some ways, I don't necessarily know if that's true. When the Vietnam War came along, he was staunch on the side of the administration and thought that people had to do their duty and go to fight, but at the same time he was also a very spiritual person.

He believed in hands-on healing, the prayer of healing, and he also was very moved by the experience of people who had suffered in war. So I think it's best that I take him at his word when he said he wanted to do some good with the remainder of his life.

MARK BRODIE: It's such an interesting juxtaposition because, as you point out, he spent much of his early career and life in the military, you know, not just flying planes, but sort of doing it, as you say, for a military purpose to then, you know, toward the end of his life, you know, try to make amends for some of that. So it's a very interesting juxtaposition, I think.

LIAM CALLANAN: It is an interesting juxtaposition, and I don't think it's a, in some ways all that rare one. There's many people, in fact, there's almost a tradition of military officers who later in life go into service, particularly in the Episcopal Church, for whatever reason. And I don't necessarily know that it's a way of atoning so much as a way, they come from a life of service and then they want to personalize or broaden that service with a spiritual element. That's my guess, anyway.

I think Maitland had a lot of things going on in his life. He grew up when aviation meant almost certain death. In World War I, there was a period where one out of every four British pilots was dying. And so, Maitland himself on his first 14 attempts to take off from an airfield in Texas as a student pilot crashed or his plane failed. And so I think he had so many close brushes with death that he had to be in touch with what it meant to be a pilot, what it meant to be alive, and what it meant to be I guess that fortunate time and again.

He had, he also had like a nice spiritual description later in life when he talked about flying into Hawaii that morning and seeing the roiling clouds of blue and orange and green and red, and just all the way the sun was playing with the horizon. He said it's hard to be up there and not be a believer. And so I think that really spoke to him throughout the decades.

MARK BRODIE: Huh. It's also probably worth noting that at the time he was getting into aviation, and you alluded to this, like pilots were some of the more famous people in this country, and the fact that humans could get into a machine and fly was like really a subject of public fascination.

LIAM CALLANAN: It was fascinating, and I think it's even more fascinating for us today when we look back and see the planes that they were flying. They're basically glorified lawn furniture, you know, in some ways, just sticks and fabric, and the pilot was out in the cold air.

There's one episode where Maitland was practice flying between the Hawaiian Islands, his plane caught fire, and it was plummeting towards Earth, and the only rescue equipment they had, they were trying to put out the fire, his crew members pulled out a pigeon from a cage that they had, carefully wrote a note while the plane's smoking and burning all around them, tied the note to the pigeon's leg and sent it off. It was a homing pigeon, it flew back to base and said, "Maitland's in trouble, send a ship to get him," and it did.

And so I think daredevil stories like that, just people marvel at the luck and fortune and courage of these folks to actually fulfill their duty. There's a quote from Maitland that I like, I have some access to some of his old manuscripts, which I looked at at the U.S. Air Force Academy in Colorado in their archives, and he wrote, "There is a certain type of daredevil who will gamble with death for purse, publicity or both. For a time he occupied a prominent place in aviation."

And then he penciled in beneath that, "He has no place there any longer." So Maitland was never into flying for fun or for stunt work, but always for a higher purpose.

MARK BRODIE: So, am I right that at a certain point in his life, Maitland made it down to Arizona and was living here?

LIAM CALLANAN: He did. In fact, part of this book, I was down at the Pima Air & Space Museum doing a little work down there and researching it. And on his way to Hawaii, he actually took a long way from Ohio, stopped in many places from Texas to California, but one of those places was Tucson.

But later in life, he retired as a Episcopal priest, worked as a pastor for a long time up in Cave Creek, Arizona, just north of Phoenix, where he was pastor at Good Shepherd Church, and he's buried there in a columbarium beside his wife.

MARK BRODIE: So, when you look at Maitland's life and career, and you sort of look at it maybe in the context of other famous aviators of that time or or other times, where do you, like how do you see him? How do you how do you rate him?

LIAM CALLANAN: I rate him pretty highly. I think I rate him most highly for courage, that he was able to go up in these planes that had no business staying aloft. He went on these World War II bombing missions in Europe when they were actually asking senior commanders like himself to stay on the ground just for survival's sake. He would go up if the men needed a additional boost of confidence and he would continue to go there.

I think that he didn't necessarily achieve a flight over the North Pole or a flight around the world or, for that matter, a flight to Paris, but I also think he wasn't interested in that. I think he was interested in flying for flying's sake, flying for the military, certainly flying for America, but also just I think he believed in the power of flight to redeem a man stuck on his life on the ground. It allowed him to fly higher and dream higher as well.

MARK BRODIE: That is Liam Callanan, a professor of creative writing at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, author of the book "Stone Age Astronaut: The Astonishing Adventures of America's Forgotten Flyer." Liam, thanks so much, I appreciate it.

LIAM CALLANAN: Mark, I appreciate you, thanks so much.

MARK BRODIE: Good morning, it’s The Show on KJZZ 91.5. I’m Mark Brodie.

In late November 2004, an armored car driver named Keith Palomares was shot and killed outside a movie theater in Ahwatukee. The suspect in the murder, Jason Derek Brown, was on the FBI’s Most Wanted list, but has eluded capture over all these years.

A new documentary called “The Coward” looks at the case. It’ll be screening at the AMC theater in Ahwatukee where the shooting happened through next week. Charlie Minn is the film’s director, he joins me in studio.

Good morning, Charlie.

CHARLIE MINN: Thanks so much for having me.

MARK BRODIE: Thanks for being here. So what, like what interested you about this case? What spoke to you about it?

CHARLIE MINN: Well, it was so heinous. It was just so evil and unfair. And then when I started researching it, I discovered how it destroyed a family. When you kill one person, you’re always killing about 10. I’ve always said that, because family, friends, etc.

So I found out that Keith’s mom died of cancer three years later in 2007, no justice for her son. The dad died around COVID, and then there’s only one left, and that’s the brother who I interviewed for the documentary, very emotional. I mean, he’s devastated still by this to this day, and he went to Camelback High School here in Phoenix, and he will never step foot in Arizona again. He told me that.

MARK BRODIE: Because of this.

CHARLIE MINN: Because of the killing of his brother, yeah. I had to meet him in Blythe, California. I had to meet him at the midway point. He lives in Palm Springs now. I was in Phoenix, I offered to fly him in, all that. But he said, “Sorry, I can’t meet you there.” So I said, “Well, let’s meet in between in Blythe.” So at least we’re not in Arizona.

MARK BRODIE: Yeah. So the suspect in this case, Jason Derek Brown, like, you interviewed a lot of law enforcement folks in this documentary. And they, they seem to not really have any idea what happened to him.

CHARLIE MINN: That’s the big question mark. I mean, for over two decades he’s been a ghost. It’s really hard these days with modern technology. That’s why quite a few people believe he’s dead. But there would be no forensic evidence that would confirm that.

So the assumption is that he’s alive. He has connections all over the world. The FBI gets tips all over the world for this gutless criminal, the coward, and he needs to be brought down, and to get right to the point, he deserves the death penalty for what he did.

MARK BRODIE: Is there any motive that that law enforcement has identified other than money?

CHARLIE MINN: I mean, that was the main thing. I think in the movie Lance Leising, the FBI agent, said greed. Apparently, the sister wrote a book about the Brown family, because the dad had disappeared 10 years before the son did, Jason. So like father, like son.

They were both con men, the father and the son. And apparently Jason was running low on money. He had been, he was depressed. So he made a desperate move. And did he have to kill an armored car guard over that? He probably could have just robbed it and not killed him. But so sad, and the fact that it’s unresolved makes it worse.

MARK BRODIE: Yeah, did the law enforcement sources with whom you spoke have a sense of why it’s been so hard to to crack this case, to really to really close it?

CHARLIE MINN: Well, I’ll take a direct quote from the movie, the FBI agent said, “I wish he looked more distinctive.” He said he’s just an average looking white guy. That’s exactly his quote.

MARK BRODIE: Easier to blend in.

CHARLIE MINN: Easily, he could have went to the Diamondbacks game last week and nobody would have had a second thought. He’s 5-foot-10, 170 pounds at the at the time of his disappearance. So that blends in as well.

But some of the characteristics people should look out for is that he loves to play golf, he loves the gym. He’s he’s a clean freak, like he just doesn’t want anyone, anyone who goes into his house, no one can, everyone has to take off their shoes, sort of like a Korean thing. I’m Korean, that’s a Korean thing.

And he loves to party, he loves to be the center of attention. His sister wrote a book called “Center of Attention.” So he wants to be the life of the party. So all that’s described in the documentary, and for more information, people can go to thecowardfilm.com.

MARK BRODIE: What kind of response have you gotten? I would imagine there’s a lot of people who have seen it who remember the case and maybe, maybe it had slipped their mind or maybe they’re like, “Oh yeah, I remember that happening a couple decades ago.” What have you heard?

CHARLIE MINN: Yeah, I mean if you’re a true crime junkie, this is right up your alley. And we had our first screening last night, again, like you said, at AMC Ahwatukee, where the murder occurred, probably the first time in the history of movies where the movie opened at the location of the murder.

And I had a guy come up to me yesterday and said, “Yeah, I worked on that case.” So you’ll run into law enforcement, you’ll run into journalists who said they were there that morning. Again, senseless, evil. Where is this animal?

MARK BRODIE: Do you have a sense, like after doing all these interviews and all the research, like do you have a sense of what what happened, where he might be?

CHARLIE MINN: Could be in Montreal. He has Canadian connections. He’s fluent in French. He was a Mormon. He’s certainly shamed them. And like I said, he’s got connections everywhere, Mexico, all over the Southwest, he’s lived in Utah, Arizona. He’s from Southern California. He ran a modeling agency in Austin, Texas. He also did a mission in Paris. So he could be anywhere.

Jason Derek Brown is wanted by the FBI in the 2004 shooting. (804x521, AR: 1.5431861804222649)

MARK BRODIE: You mentioned that he was on the FBI’s Most Wanted list. Am I right that he is no longer on the FBI’s Most Wanted list?

CHARLIE MINN: Correct. They took him off.

MARK BRODIE: So is there still an active effort to try to find him?

CHARLIE MINN: Absolutely. FBI, they tell me that they exhaust every lead. I even get leads. People hit up the website, thecowardfilm.com, and they send in leads. I look at them. We always return all the emails, Angie Silva, my brilliant producer, and I.

So we got another tip yesterday at the theater. So we encourage people to keep bringing those leads in, and I think the public eventually can help solve this thing because of social media. Let’s take advantage of social media and use it in the right way, and try to get this animal off the street.

MARK BRODIE: So it sounds like you you have faith that that this case will be closed at some point.

CHARLIE MINN: I think if it’s revived like a documentary, a documentary’s an excellent platform, Mark, to inform, educate and raise awareness. I think I’m doing the right thing by reviving this case. It’s really faded. Every case fades over time.

MARK BRODIE: This is two decades ago.

CHARLIE MINN: Exactly. I was home for 9/11, even that fades. Nancy Guthrie has faded, and that could be the topic of my next documentary. So we have to keep this case out in the open. We have age-enhanced photos of Brown in the documentary. He’d be in his late 50s.

He’s so brazen. I mean, this happened at 10 in the morning when he when he put five bullets into Keith Palomares’ head as he was coming out of a movie theater, takes his money bag, $56,000 in there, and escapes on a bicycle. I have never heard of anyone escaping on a bicycle before.

MARK BRODIE: Interesting. All right, we’ll have to leave it there. That is Charlie Minn, the director of the documentary called “The Coward.” It’ll be screening at the AMC theater in Ahwatukee through next week. Charlie, thanks so much.

CHARLIE MINN: Thanks so much for having me.

MARK BRODIE: Our next guest this morning might be familiar to any reality TV fans out there. Kamu Kirk is a professional MMA fighter and coach from here in Phoenix, and he was the sixth houseguest evicted from the “Big Brother” house on this year's competition.

[CLIP FROM “BIG BROTHER” PLAYS}

JULIE CHEN MOONVES: Houseguests, the votes are in. When I reveal the vote, the evicted houseguest will have just a few moments to say goodbye, gather his or her belongings and walk out the front door. By a vote of 8-1, Kamu, you are evicted from the "Big Brother" house.

[END OF CLIP]

MARK BRODIE: Kirk was actually one of two Phoenicians on the show this season, so we took the chance to chat with him about what it's like to compete on the Orwellian reality show where contestants compete to stay in the "Big Brother" house where they're constantly on camera and cut off from the outside world. Kirk told my co-host, Lauren Gilger, he was primed to compete on a show like this. He said he grew up watching "Survivor" and watched his first season of "Big Brother" when he was 18 and fell in love with it.

KAMU KIRK: You have to be physical, you also have to be strategic and you have to be social. But if you're too extreme in any of those areas, then you become a big threat. But if you're not good enough in any of those areas, then people also want to take you out. So you have to find that middle ground, that balance, and it was always something that I was fascinated with from the time I was I was a little kid. And so these types of of shows, "Big Brother," "Survivor," they just seem like the ultimate competitions.

LAUREN GILGER: Right. OK, I can see the the draw there. Talk a little bit about the process of getting onto the show, right? Like when did this go from "I'm a fan" to "I want to be in that house"?

KAMU KIRK: Yeah, you know what, so I have to — I always wanted to play, but I have to give my my brother props for actually really encouraging me to apply. Because for many years I was like, "Oh, I'd love to go on 'Survivor,'" or "I'd love to go on 'Big Brother,'" but I didn't apply. And then this particular — well, this past application season, my brother was like, "Hey dude, this is the year, we got to do it, we have to do it." And I kept kind of being like, "Oh yeah, yeah, you know, we'll do it, we'll do it." And he's like, "No, no, let's pick a weekend, let's lock in a date and let's actually do it." And so that's what we did, and long story short, you know, I'll be forever grateful to my brother because I wouldn't have done it if it wasn't for him. And, you know, then I ended up making it on the show.

LAUREN GILGER: Were you surprised you did make it on the show? I mean ... how many applicants do they probably get, right?

KAMU KIRK: Well, you know what, they get on average roughly 30,000 applicants every single season.

LAUREN GILGER: My goodness.

KAMU KIRK: Yeah, so it was a, I mean, what a what a blessing it was to actually make it on the show and be one of those, you know, 30,000 — and really even less than that, because they always have half the cast men, half the cast women. So really, there were 17 people on the show, nine of them were women, eight of them were men. So out of the 30,000 people, only eight men were selected. So to be one of them is, you know, it was a huge blessing for sure.

LAUREN GILGER: Why do you think they chose you? What what do you think about you or your application stood out?

KAMU KIRK: I think probably the fact that I fought in the UFC, I think was a was a big selling point, and because I grew up competing. You know, I've always been a pretty social guy as well, so I always enjoyed the interviews, I enjoyed every person that I met with ... along the way throughout the process, and kind of became friends with each person that I would talk to and we would always have good rapport. So I think between my competitive background and then, you know, my ability to get along with people and to socialize with people, I think was was probably — I think those were probably the selling points for me that helped me out.

LAUREN GILGER: Yeah, and and I'm guessing it is a long and kind of drawn-out process to get onto the show, right?

KAMU KIRK: Yeah ... I applied in like December or or January, and then I didn't hear back until February. I actually kind of forgot about it and just assumed, "Ah, I'm not getting a call back," because about a month went by before I heard anything. And then I heard something, and then it was about a four-month process before I got selected to be on the show. So, yeah, it was it was pretty strenuous, pretty thorough process that I went through. But honestly, it was it was a joy to go through.

LAUREN GILGER: OK, so months-long process to get in, you make it to the house. Tell us about entering into this house the first day you get there. You're isolated from the world. You kind of know that you're not going to have any contact with anybody on the outside for a long time. What did it feel like?

KAMU KIRK: Yeah, that's such a good question. So, like I said, I started watching "Big Brother" probably around the time I was 18 or so. I'm 32 now. And being in the house and walking through the door for the first time was just the most surreal feeling in the world, because I'm like, "Dude, I've I've seen this on TV for so long, for so many years, and now I'm here." And I'm like, "This is the room where this happened," or, "This is the room where that conversation went down," and it was just it was so much fun. But if there was one word to summarize it all, that word would be surreal.

LAUREN GILGER: Wow, I bet. I bet. So let's talk about being in the house. You spent 45 days there, got through many rounds, won some of these competitions along the way before you were kind of voted out. What was the gamesmanship like, the maneuvering? How did you approach the sort of social game part of this, the Orwellian part of this, right?

KAMU KIRK: Yeah. Yeah. So basically I found out night one that there was a good chance I was a consideration for being nominated to go home. And for for those who understand the "Big Brother" lingo, I was basically told night one there's a good chance I was going to be going up on the block.

LAUREN GILGER: Man.

KAMU KIRK: Yeah .. on night one, and it was because I was seen as a physical threat. So I knew right off the bat, I really had to focus on my my social game. And so, literally from night one, I started to form as many connections with people as I possibly could, because when you have meaningful relationships with people in the house, those those meaningful relationships could potentially turn into meaningful alliances.

LAUREN GILGER: When you talk about sort of trying to form connections with people in the house, I mean, it's TV, right? Like there's got to be a level of like, "We know that this is all part of a game, there are cameras here, we know everyone's watching." How much does that matter in that process? Does it really feel genuine in in the moment?

KAMU KIRK: You know what, you'd be surprised how quickly you forget that you are on camera 24/7 and you're mic'd up and everybody can see and hear you all the time. I remember before going in the show, somebody had said, "Oh yeah, you know, you're going to forget that the cameras are on." And I just thought like, "How could you forget? They're everywhere. They're in every corner, in every room, you're always wearing a mic. How do you forget?" You forget so fast. But, so, but you can tell when you're having genuine conversations with people, you can tell when somebody's being a little bit shifty, a little bit shady, when somebody's being a lot more genuine.

LAUREN GILGER: Yeah. OK, so you are there for 45 days, you do end up being eliminated, sent home, evicted I think is the phrase on on "Big Brother," right?

KAMU KIRK: Yep, correct. Evicted from the house.

LAUREN GILGER: Right, so talk about the moment you walked out, right? Like 45 days is a long time. Did you get your phone back? Like did you call your family?

KAMU KIRK: Yeah, so you know what I got my phone back the next day. So I did a bunch of interviews first. So you get evicted and then the next day I did a bunch of interviews, and then I got my phone afterwards. And yeah, it is crazy when you're gone for, you know, a month and a half, two months, and then you get your phone back, there's so much to catch up on.

But it was really nice talking to my family, you know, catching up with my friends, seeing everybody at the gym again. But I will say, to this day, even now, it still bothers me that I was evicted when I was. I really wanted to stay in the house. I had I had so many dreams about it, like several dreams for weeks after getting evicted, because I would just think about everything going on in the house and how badly I still wished I was there competing.

LAUREN GILGER: I mean, so you come back, right? You do a lot of interviews, you go back to your regular life, but you also kind of are met with like the reality as the show airs of of what folks have been seeing, right? Like the the sort of ethos of the fans on "Big Brother," right? Like people will dig into every little bit of your background, lots of, you know, backlash about your beliefs, your politics, comments you make — like everything is up for grabs. What's this been like coming out of it?

KAMU KIRK: Yeah, you know, so that was surprising to me, but it was surprising, at the same time, I also kind of dealt with it in MMA a little bit as well. You can never please everybody. I think what was the most surprising was what people were saying and how they would take things and they would twist things and they would take things out of context. And then they would say things that just straight up were not true whatsoever. But, you know what, it's one of those things where it's like I know who I am and what I'm about, the people that I love and care about who love and care about me, they know who I am, they know what I'm about. And it gets to a point where it's like, you know what, people are going to they're going to label you and they're going to judge you and and they're going to say whatever they want. You can't let it get under your skin. Besides the criticism, too, there's been an overwhelming amount of support.

LAUREN GILGER: Do you have a pick for the winner?

KAMU KIRK: I'm rooting for my girl Taylor. Taylor, she fought really hard for me when I was still in the house. She fought really hard to keep me. My boy Yash also fought very hard to keep me. Yash, unfortunately, got evicted last week. Taylor is still in the house going strong, so I'm rooting for her. If not Taylor, then I'm going for Devens, my boy Devens.

LAUREN GILGER: OK. All right, we'll see what happens. The season finale is on Oct. 2. That is Kamu Kirk joining us. Kamu, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate you giving us an inside look here.

KAMU KIRK: Hey, thank you so much for having me on the show, Lauren. I really appreciate it.

MARK BRODIE: Thanks for listening to The Show's podcast. The Show is produced by Xativa Peterson, Nick Sanchez, Amber Victoria Singer, Athena Ankrah, and Ayana Hamilton. The Show was created by John Hockenberry. Our executive producer is Amy Silverman. You can find more of The Show and sign up for our newsletter at theshow.kjzz.org. You can also find us on Instagram @kjzztheshow.