In 2016, Caleb Campbell, lead pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in north Phoenix, started to notice something. And for as long as he’d been there, the congregation hadn’t been that political. But that year, he started to notice pushback against some of the church’s initiatives, like caring for refugees.
People would come up to him after sermons and ask why he was pushing a “liberal agenda.” When Campbell preached against violent acts by police, or called for humane treatment of immigrants, he would receive text messages and emails from congregants, questioning whether those values were truly Christian.
By 2021, these sentiments had reached what Campbell calls “a fever pitch,” and he wanted to figure out what was going on. Someone suggested he should check out an event at a nearby church, billed as a “revival.”
The event was hosted by Turning Point USA, and when Campbell walked in, he was stunned. The gathering had all the hallmarks of a worship service — praise songs and sermons, but with a notable twist. At the pulpit, the person leading the service was making the case that a true reading of scripture compelled Christians to declare their total allegiance to right-wing political causes.
Campbell realized he was witnessing a spiritual community overtaken by what he calls "American Christian Nationalism," a movement that conflates spiritual teachings with an overtly nationalistic political agenda. It bore no resemblance to the version of faith that had called him to become a pastor, and he resolved to do something about it.
The result is a new book called “Disarming Leviathan,” Campbell’s attempt to diagnose and treat the root causes. Campbell spoke to The Show about how his approach is informed, in part, by a fateful hike.
Full conversation
CALEB CAMPBELL: So, I was hiking in northern Arizona and had come across the carcass of a deer that had been ensnared and entangled in some loose barbed wire. And it seemed to me like this creature was, not only ensnared, but was feeling trapped and fought against it and eventually took its life.
But I remember thinking, ‘what would I do if I came across this deer and it was still alive? What would I do to try to help it?’
And some of the things as I've thought about this, that have come to mind are, well, I first of all need to convince it that I'm not its enemy, and so doing everything I could to create a calming presence, to communicate, "I'm for you. I want your good."
And then second, I'd need the right tools in this case, like wire cutters or something like that, because if you don't have the right tools, you can't help people. And then third, I need to know how to use the tools and I need to be really careful as I use them because I don't want to cause more injury.
SAM DINGMAN: Yes. And if I may, it seems like one of the reasons that you are so appreciative of these tools, as you're describing them, that are informed by this spirit of love and compassion and empathy for the person who you perceive to be in crisis, is because you had that approach extended to you during a time in your life when you were affiliated with a white nationalist group.
CAMPBELL: Yeah. So, in the 90s, I was a fellow with a group of neo-Nazi skinheads, and had given myself over to it. And one of the things that I think often gets misunderstood is it, it's common to think that the ideology comes first and then the community comes second. But, in most people's experience, I think it's actually the inverse.
I wasn't sitting around reading a genetics book, reasoning myself into white supremacy. I was at a party, there was a bunch of tough looking dudes that invited me to come over and hang out with them. You know, we exchanged phone numbers, they invited me to a party, and over time, I became one of them, and in order to belong and to continue my belonging in that community, you're incentivized to fall in with the ideology.
And in this case, the promises of safety, belonging and purpose were a deception, and the way that you could tell was if you asked the wrong questions, you would be kicked out of the community. And true safety and true community exist where you're able to ask whatever question you want without fear of expulsion.
DINGMAN: Yeah. Well, and to illustrate this, one of the things that you write about in that section where you're talking about your transition away from this group of skinheads, is you eventually find your way to a community of faith that you are interested in and that intrigues you, but that you have some questions about and there's, there's one member of this community in particular who starts like just inviting you over to, to talk and, and have beer, which, which you're sort of momentarily scandalized by.
CAMPBELL: So I had started to play the drums at the church that I'm now the lead pastor of and was still very suspicious of Christians, that they were all hypocrites. But I felt like I should do good stuff for God, that was kind of my idea at the time. And I like playing the drums.
And one of the band members started inviting me, he and his wife invited me over to their house about every week, and the invitation was, you know, after dinner, we'll grab a couple of beers and talk about what makes you angry about religion.
And at that season of my life, that was my dominant emotion, was rage. And so I had lots of stuff to talk about. And they were not agreeing with me all the time, although sometimes they did, but they were practicing hospitality and compassion and they were honoring me just by listening. And over the course of a year in those meetings, I found myself following Jesus because I saw Jesus through them.
DINGMAN: Well, I have to say, I'm really struck in the story that you just shared by something that I feel like, I hear people say sometimes, but I don't know if I've ever heard illustrated quite as clearly as you just did, which is that you said you found Jesus in these folks, in the form of an ethos, in the form of a spirit, to use somewhat religious language, rather than a guy named Jesus who believed certain things.
And, and that seems important to me because as I was reading the book, there did seem to be a little bit of a tension that I wanted to ask you about, which is that you're arguing against the ultimate allegiance to American Christian Nationalism, but you're not against submission to the idea of Jesus and his teachings as, as you interpret them. Why is that different for you? And and should Jesus be open to criticism as well?
CAMPBELL: Great question. So, in my understanding of the nature of humanity, of which I am certainly not an expert, we are all centering something in the core of our being. It's the story that we believe that we're a part of, could be ourselves, it could be sex, it could be money, it could be power.
And so the question is not, should I center something or not? We're all doing it. The question is what belief or person will ultimately lead to human flourishing? And I have found the story of Jesus to be not only captivating, but also existentially satisfying.
And so, to your second question, is Jesus up into critique or criticism or questioning. In my reading of the Christian scriptures, it's a bunch of people asking questions about God oftentimes criticizing him, which God seems to invite. In my relationship with my deepest friends, those relationships are always founded on really profound questions that we're asking each other, and I think it's the same with our relationship with God.
DINGMAN: So last question. Elsewhere in the book, you write, “American Christian Nationalism attempts to sink two incompatible ideologies, namely nationalism and the way of Jesus. One must consider how much nationalism can be mixed in with the gospel, before it makes people spiritually sick.”
So, would you say the the goal with this book is a defense of America from American Christian Nationalism, or a defense of spiritual purity, Christian or otherwise?
CAMPBELL: So, my heart is primarily being real clear about the good news of Jesus. Because, I think if we get real clear on that, then we can actually, Christians can actually help America grow in healthiness. So, my primary goal is focused on the church now, this is as a pastor, however, I love my country and I want what's best for her. And so, I hope both are outcomes of the book, but if I had to pick one, I'd first pick the church because I think a healthy church in America will bless America in the long run.
