It’s one of the infamous unsolved mysteries in Arizona history. On April 10, 2001, a Scottsdale man named Robert Fisher allegedly murdered his wife and children, blew up the family’s house, and then escaped into the wilderness. Fisher has never been seen or heard from again.
While many assume he’s been dead for some time, Jon Walczak isn’t convinced.
Walczak is the host of two wildly popular true crime podcasts: Missing in Alaska and Missing on 9/11. His shows have attracted millions of listeners to cold cases like Robert Fisher’s, and Fisher is the subject of Walczak’s latest project, Missing in Arizona.
The show has become yet another hit for Walczak, and it’s also gotten plenty of scrutiny. In the very first episode, Walczak speaks to a new witness who challenges investigators’ timeline of events on the night of Fisher’s disappearance, narrowing the window in which he could’ve escaped. But some have raised questions about Walczak’s approach to the story. Among other things, he uses artificial intelligence to recreate the voice of Robert Fisher.
For Walczak, challenging the norms of journalism is part of the mission. He’s a former print reporter who says podcasting presents an opportunity for a different kind of storytelling. He believes the medium has the potential to engage new audiences and uncover fresh leads in cases like Fisher’s.
Full conversation
SAM DINGMAN: There's a moment in the first episode that I, I would love to ask you about where you say, "Let me speak now to Robert Fisher. I will not give up." Where did that line come from for you that, that desire to address him directly and, and kind of challenge him in that way?
JON WALCZAK: I think Robert Fisher is alive. And I worry, you know, as a journalist and a storyteller, when people hear a line like that, again, it seems kind of like a gimmick, like just a dramatic narrative device. But in truth, I'm speaking directly to Robert Fisher. So I try to appeal to him in different ways. If I'm being honest, I try to goad him in different ways. It's something that I think an investigator would do sitting down at an interview table with him.
DINGMAN: Let me ask you about that. How do you think the particularities of podcasting have changed the way that you approach the storytelling?
WALCZAK: I think that it's allowed me to tell it however I want. And part of that is that it's audio-specific. So it's richer than text and even graphics. And it's not as complicated as film. So it's somewhere in the middle. And in some ways, it's really challenging because you have to hit so many notes. Like I have to convey the information here, the details. Here's the story. I want to be responsible. I want it to be entertaining. I need the audience's help. I'm speaking to Robert Fisher. I'm speaking to the media. And so I think that there are just different languages that get blended together in a podcast.
DINGMAN: You're making me think that part of what is going on when podcasting as a medium is criticized is that there is this tendency, I think, to want to fit it into the strictures of another medium. So for example, to say like, well, it's, it's audio so it should operate by the same rules as radio. Or to say, well, it's, it's documentary-style storytelling. So it should, it should operate by the same rules as documentary film. When in fact, it's just its own medium that has different rules.
WALCZAK: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it also takes courageous storytellers and courageous media outlets, because there is such a pressure to conform. Especially when you're rising up and you get an opportunity like I had to tell a story with a large partner like iHeartRadio, there is a pressure to play it safe, and I just really don't want to do that. I want to tell a story in a creative and innovative way. And, you know, sometimes we try things and they fail and, people are certainly not shy about letting me know that,
DINGMAN: For sure. Yeah. And I mean, I think, you know, to this point in our conversation, we've been talking about counters to the argument that some make that podcasts are not "real journalism" or real storytelling or whatever. Because they're as much about the story as they are about this other deeper human thing, about the pursuit of meaning. But I do think where those criticisms can sometimes have validity is when it comes to questions about using someone else's story to fuel your own sense of adventure. And what the implications for family members of the deceased or, or people who have passed away and don't get a say in whether their story is being told, might say about that storytelling. Is that a question you've felt you had to wrestle with?
WALCZAK: I think it really comes down to how a storyteller handles it. Of course, I try to handle the family and the friends and the people tied to this case with empathy. But I try to handle Robert Fisher with empathy. I don't condone the actions, but I really just want to look at this person for who they were. I don't want to portray them in this lazy way, as just like this cartoon demon. And, you know, I would say respectfully, certainly not everybody, but I've sat down with dozens of these people. I've discussed many things with them privately. And my fidelity is to the people who graciously shared their stories with me. I try really hard. And so, I'm not sure if you're gonna ask me about the AI voice, for example, but if you want to, you're welcome to.
DINGMAN: But, well, I'm glad you did anticipate my question. What were the conversations around that? How did you make the decision to go ahead and do that?
WALCZAK: Yeah. So, I want to find Robert Fisher. So what we did is we took every second of Robert Fisher's voice that we have. So what that was is that was me for like a week or two last year combing through a home video that survived the fire in a fire safe, and bits and pieces of video that were given to me by family, friends. And indexing every single second of Robert Fisher's voice ... that we have that's out there.
And then we worked with this company called Altered AI. And we said, can you recreate Robert Fisher's voice? So, we only use it one — in one episode and that is an episode in which I interview — in air quotes — AI Robert Fisher about the ethics of recreating his voice. And ... from this case perspective as well, unique to this case, one of the big things that people will tell you about Robert Fisher — and tying it into other cases of familicide in a broader context, not just Robert Fisher — is that these guys are really obsessed with control. And so in this sense, this is me taking control from Robert Fisher, if he's out there listening, and saying, "If you want to speak for yourself, you're welcome to come forward."
DINGMAN: So this is part of the broader attempt to kind of goad him directly.
WALCZAK: Partially that, partially it was an experiment. I like pushing boundaries with storytelling with narration, with soundscaping. But especially with the investigation itself.
DINGMAN: Right. I mean, the pushback, I could imagine somebody giving is it could prompt a certain type of listener who lends perhaps too much credibility to the version of Fisher that you've created to render a false positive. You know what I mean? To think that they have seen actual evidence of Robert Fisher in the wild and falsely accuse somebody or lead investigators on a wild goose chase. Is that something you worry about?
WALCZAK: Honestly, no, because ... investigators have gotten thousands of leads over the years. I think that what we are offering is, first off, we are uncovering new information, including pieces of information and details that I know are new to investigators, because I've spoken to people that they never spoke to. And second, I think we're also reaching a new generation with this story. And so I think there's this assumption that the Robert Fisher story is so famous and — even in Arizona — that, well, what's the point in more media on it? And I think the honest answer is if you go ask 20 people on the street of Phoenix today and say, "Do you know who Robert Fisher is?" Maybe two or three of them say yes. So you know, the other 17 could be right next to Robert Fisher right now in Phoenix and not even recognized that he's there. So I think to attempt to tackle this story in a different way, and in a different medium, and in a different era, and a different time. And for in part, a different generation, I think has utility. I recognize that this show is a Hail Mary to find Robert Fisher. But as I say in the show, sometimes Hail Marys work.
