For the first time ever, we have five different generations of workers all at once. As lifespans go up and costs follow, more workers are delaying retirement as the newest crop, Gen Z, enters the workforce. This has presented new challenges when it comes to intergenerational collaboration and interpersonal relationships in the workplace.
A few years ago, writer Derek Thompson coined the term “workism,” arguing that with the decline of religion, work has increasingly become the source of existential meaning for many Americans.
Simone Stolzoff, a former reporter at various newspapers and magazines, agrees, because that’s exactly what happened to him. Stolzoff eventually got burned out on the belief that journalism could save the world, and left the profession. Now he’s the author of a book called "The Good Enough Job: Reclaiming Life from Work," which argues that it’s critical to separate our spiritual well-being from the work we do.
Stolzoff joined The Show to talk bout why he takes his pickup basketball games just as seriously as he takes his writing.
Full conversation
SIMONE STOLZOFF: One of the great things about playing pickup basketball is that no one cares about how many words I've written that week, or how many books I've sold, you know. What they care about is that I am a good teammate and I box out when I rebound, and so we can extrapolate to whatever it is that you care about in your life. It doesn't have to be a big sweeping gesture, just some reminder that you exist on this earth to do more than produce economic value.
And I think, you know, there's a lot of pressure in order to sort of monetize some of our passions or monetize some of our hobbies. You know, you can't just be someone who likes to bake, you have to be a baker and then your friends will tell you to open up a pop-up or start a shop for your crafting hobby.
SAM DINGMAN: Yeah. Well, it's so funny, you know, I think about the basketball example, like, you know, if you decide you want to play pickup basketball, nobody's going to say, like, “well, if you like pickup basketball so much you should join the NBA.”
STOLZOFF: Exactly.
DINGMAN: And if I'm hearing you right, it's about treating the pickup basketball game the same way as you treat your baking project or your writing project. Even it, it doesn't need to turn into a book the way yours did.
STOLZOFF: Yeah, I think the goal is just to be present in whatever it is that you're doing.
DINGMAN: Yes, that all makes sense. But, there was one chapter in the book that I found very unsettling and I wanted to talk to you about it. All of the chapters are fascinating but to hone in on Brandon Sprague, Brandon Sprague is a former Google employee and he eventually ends up leaving Google to take a job at an AI startup because as he puts it, “it's just a job,” and his whole journey made sense to me in the context that we've been talking about.
But something about the fact that it was a, it specifically really got me spinning out and I wonder what you make of this because to me, the existential threat of AI is that it's going to automate away all of our work. And I had this thought that in a weird way, maybe “workism” where you bring all of your humanity to your work is kind of like the one thing that could save us from AI.
So, I do wonder what you make of, of that question, the role that A I is going to play in our work lives and how that affects all this?
STOLZOFF: Yeah, I mean, I think that's the million dollar question that so many people are asking themselves right now. And so, part of my argument of creating a more balanced culture when it comes to work, has to do with what can differentiate ourselves from the robots, quote unquote. You know, the research shows that people who have greater self-complexity, who have invested in different sides of themselves, tend to be more innovative and they tend to be more creative problem solvers. And in order to be able to think in that kind of way, that is uniquely human, you need to be able to have the space in your days, in your weeks, in your lives so that you can be able to put those pieces together in a way that no computer will ever be able to do.
DINGMAN: Yeah. You know, for some reason that the thing that just popped into my mind is "Mad Men" and how Don Draper is always coming up with these incredibly creative campaigns that nobody else can even conceive of. And it's because he spends his afternoons and nights, you know, drinking and wandering in and out of jazz clubs and doing all sorts of ridiculous things that nobody would characterize as work.
And I, I know that, you know, we, we wouldn't necessarily say that Don Draper has a good work-life balance. But there is this way in which, like, his humanity and his work are so enmeshed.
STOLZOFF: Yeah. One of my first editors told me that if you want to be a good writer, you have to have a good life. You know, and I think that's true for many different professions.
DINGMAN: So, but how do you have that conversation with yourself now that you're writing full time? Because I know writing is a great passion of yours. Do you have moments where you have to tell yourself, “I love writing but it's just a job?”
STOLZOFF: Yeah, I think, you know, the biggest thing that's helped me is trying to create structural boundaries to protect when I am on and off the clock. Part of it is things like physical space. Like I have a desk where I write from, I don't do anything else at that desk. When I'm there, I'm there to work. And then at the end of the work day, I, I close my laptop and put it away.
Part of it is more spiritual in terms of the boundaries of making sure that I am investing in things like quality time with my family, in things like exercise that bring meaning to my life outside of work.
And part of it is just keeping work in perspective and thinking, “OK, this is at times something that I derive a lot of meaning and passion from. And at other times, this is the thing that supports me and pays for my material existence so that I can do what I love when I'm not working and making sure that I reinforce that neither is more noble.”
Every single line of work, even if it is a passion job like writing or being a radio host has its level of monotony ... in it. And I think a more realistic, a more balanced approach to what work is and what role it has in our lives can free us from expecting our work to always be a dream or to always be a necessary evil.
DINGMAN: I actually am glad you brought that up as an example because I, as a sort of a closing, I was wondering if I could ask you for some advice because you do write so transparently about your own journey with this. And I think a thought that I kept having as I was reading the book is, I am extraordinarily grateful to get to be a radio host. It's truly what I wanted to do my whole life.
But I think something that I struggle with is when it comes to my relationships outside of work, you know, my relationship as a son, or as a relationship partner, I sort of view my professional fulfillment as a prerequisite for me being able to be worthwhile as a son or worthwhile as a relationship partner. It would not be worthwhile for others to invest in me if I had not first demonstrated the courage of my convictions, or something like that. Is that the kind of thing that comes up for you a lot when you talk to people about this?
STOLZOFF: Yeah, I mean, the thing that came to mind was just a brief anecdote that I wrote about in the book, I didn't expand on it too much. But there was this woman, Liz, who was a public school teacher and a lawyer and maybe like you, someone who derived a lot of identity and purpose and meaning from her job. And then she got a chronic disease, which influenced her ability to be productive, to even show up for work at all.
And the thing that she told me that is really stuck with me is that she started defining herself based on her evergreen characteristics as opposed to her professional accomplishments. So, she started to see herself as someone who was generous with her time or someone who really showed up for her friends.
And I think one of the benefits of framing your worth in this world based on these evergreen characteristics is, they don't rise and fall based on the market or based on the job landscape for, you know, radio hosts. Who are you? What are your values, and how can you make sure that you're spending your time and your energy reinforcing them?
Theme music for this series was composed by Seth Villaescusa.
