President-elect Donald Trump is rapidly approaching his second term in office, and there’s speculation that his Department of Justice, under Trump loyalist Pam Bondi, will not continue investigations like the one that’s rocked the Phoenix Police Department in recent months.
The DOJ released a blistering report earlier this summer into the department, concluding it discriminates against communities of color and routinely violates people’s civil rights.
Initially, it looked like the Phoenix PD was heading for government oversight. But, even before the report was released, city leaders spoke out against the idea of federal oversight. They say they’re already making many of the reforms the government wants them to.
Phoenix City Councilmember Kevin Robinson counts among those leaders. He’s been skeptical of allowing the feds to take over the department, but he also recognizes the need for reform. He served at the Phoenix Police Department for more than 3 decades. He’s also a professor in Arizona State University's School of Criminology and Criminal Justice.
Robinson joined The Show to discuss, beginning with his reaction to the latest controversy to hit the Phoenix PD: The case of Tyron McAlpin, a Black, deaf man with cerebral palsy who is suing the department after being tased and beaten by officers.
Full conversation
KEVIN ROBINSON: You know, my initial reaction was that it could have been handled differently, I will say that. I just felt, and this is based on my years as a police officer, and, you know, just how I believe people need to be treated. It could have been handled differently. So, I was bothered by how quickly things escalated. I did not think that that was appropriate. I've had a conversation with the police chief about that.
But, I also want to be very careful because, you know, there is pending litigation on this particular issue, and I understand that, and my role as a City Council person, I will most likely play an important part in that decision. So, there's only so much I should say. I want to wait until the report has been completed and read both sides, if you will, so I have a full understanding, but I think it's best for me to wait for that report to be completed, so I read it in its entirety.
LAUREN GILGER: All right. So this comes in a moment that was difficult already for the Phoenix Police Department, right? They're already under fire for their practices that were brought to light in this scathing and large report from the Department of Justice. There's also news that the Phoenix police have shot and killed more people this year than they have in the last two years. It's 13 people dead. I wonder, do you think, especially given what's gone on in the last several months since the DOJ report came out, that the Phoenix Police Department needs further reform?
ROBINSON: Well, I think we're on a path to reform, but I need to qualify that a little bit more. But, before I get there, let me mention, you said that the Phoenix Police Department has been involved in about 13 shootings so far this year. That is true, but what we're also missing in that discussion is the vast majority of those individuals they've been engaged with that they've had to use deadly force against were either armed, prohibited possessors.
There were other factors there. But yeah, you know, that's a lot of shootings. We've had it happen in years past when there was a lot of shootings and the department then did things that would mitigate or try to eliminate shootings in the future.
The best example I can give you is the Phoenix Police Department was the first major city police department that outfitted its entire patrol division with tasers. We had a record number of shootings one year. We implemented the tasers, put them out to everybody, and then the shootings fell by more than 60% the following year. So, the Phoenix Police Department, the city of Phoenix has a history of when it recognizes an issue or a problem, it has a history of trying to correct that behavior.
So, you ask whether or not the police department is on a path to reform. I believe they are. Interim Police Chief Michael Sullivan has done a terrific job of putting policies and procedures in place that helped to change a lot of how the department had operated in the past.
GILGER: So let's talk a little bit about what those reforms so far look like because the Phoenix PD has tried to be, I think, transparent about how they're approaching reform in light of this report and what they're doing. They've posted all of the cases that are listed in the report on their websites. You can go and look at them and read the reports. Do you think that they deserve the trust of the community to do it themselves?
ROBINSON: That's the big issue. That's, I think, the biggest obstacle facing the Phoenix Police Department right now. Do they have the trust of the community? It depends on who you talk to, obviously, there are segments of the community to say, “yes, the police can do no wrong.” There are other segments of the community to say, “no, I don't trust anything that they do.” So the question begs to be asked, what do we have to do? I think all the procedures and all the transparency that is in place is important, but I also think we need to make sure people truly understand what is happening in each of those situations where force is being used.
We have to ensure that the proper training is in place because, in a time of stress, you're gonna revert back to the way you were trained. But that is, you know, that's a pie in the sky hope on my part. I understand that. I want people to understand how difficult a job it is being a police officer. We're asking officers to make a decision in a split second. But, the more we can translate what's going on, the more we can put out there is how I believe we are able to garner the support from the public.
GILGER: You mentioned training being the basis of this for you. You said that's a pie in the sky idea. Like, why, why is that? Why do you think like, or is that a part of, should it be a part of the reforms that the Phoenix PD says they're doing for themselves right now? Should there be more training?
ROBINSON: Well, I'm pushing for that. You know, in my position as a council member, and I'm the chair of the Public Safety and Justice Subcommittee, I am advocating for more training. It's difficult to do, and this is the pie in the sky part that I was talking about, it's difficult to do because it's a large organization. You can't pull everybody offline all at the same time and train them all at the same time. And I'm talking hours and hours and hours of training. I'm not talking a half-hour here, 45 minutes there. It takes a lot.
GILGER: Let me ask you about specifically communities of color. I want to ask this because the DOJ report pointed this out, and alleges systemic discrimination, but also because you're from a community of color and I wanna know what you think when we ask that trust question. What do you think that looks like specifically for communities of color who feel as if they are as a whole not treated fairly by the police?
ROBINSON: It's very real to them. And it is, you know, every time we see a video and McAlpin is a perfect example. You know, I saw it and I, you know, like I said, it was difficult to watch, but I watched the whole thing and I'm a black male. Clearly, that bothered me. I understand how folks have a concern about how police, in general, and in this case, the Phoenix Police Department, treat people of color.
I want to see greater diversity within the police department. We don't have that now. And it's an uphill battle, and it's going to be difficult to convince folks of color to go into a profession, when you see that profession not treating people of color professionally. So it is, it's a juxtaposition that we have to figure out because that's when I think you really impact effective change, is when you're working side by side with somebody who says, “that may be a bad idea, and this is the reason why.”
GILGER: So we are obviously in a very different place now than we were a few months ago, the last time you were on The Show to talk about these cases. You at the time were a little skeptical of the DOJ appointing federal control over the Phoenix Police Department, which sort of seemed like the inevitable outcome at that point. How do you think this might look different now? Because now we have a very different administration coming in. Donald Trump will take power pretty soon in Washington. Do you think a DOJ under Trump will continue with this?
ROBINSON: My guess is, and it's just not a guess, I don't think it's going to go any further. I think that, a Trump administration Department of Justice did not in the past. I don't think they're going to in the future. They didn't pursue these types of actions against law enforcement agencies. It doesn't mean our problems go away with the Phoenix Police Department.
We're going to continue moving forward with all the reforms that we think need to take place. We're going to continue to change policy. We're gonna do all of those things because number one, it's the right thing to do. And number two, if we do the right things, then we have more people who will have a trust in us.
And what I would also caution folks, and I was explaining this to, someone inside the police department the other day 'cause they thought just that, that all this goes away, and I said, “no, it does not, because there are going to be lawsuits against the Phoenix Police Department, the city of Phoenix because of all of this. Doesn't have to go through the Department of Justice, so those issues don't go away.”
GILGER: Do you think that'll be harder to do without the pressure of the DOJ overlooking?
ROBINSON: No, I don't. And the reason I say that is you have a commitment from the mayor, the city manager's office, the City Council, to improve the Phoenix Police Department, and that has been our emphasis. We want the department to improve. We want it to be considered one of the best law enforcement agencies in the country. I think we can get there.
