Full conversation
SAM DINGMAN: All right, so in just a moment, I'm gonna have a conversation about a word. The word starts with a D, and it rhymes with strike. And it's a word that has often been used as an insult directed at queer women.
But for writer Molly McCloy, It is a word that she, like many other queer women, proudly self-applies. She, in fact, recently referred to it as her favorite reclaimed slur on her Substack. And Molly has been thinking about this word a lot because it's in the title of a memoir that she's writing. It's gonna come out next year.
And as she writes in her Substack post about this, her friends love the title of the book, but she's curious to see how the generally straight public is gonna respond to having that word on her book cover.
As recently, she writes, as 2017, Facebook prohibited lesbian Facebookers from using that word as a self-referential term. TikTok currently blocks her from using it in video captions. There's a group of activists whose name includes this word, and their ability to use this word was challenged, and the litigation actually went all the way to the Supreme Court. So it's a very loaded word.
And you'll notice that I am not saying the word in this intro, and that is because that is how Molly and I began our conversation. I didn't want to assume that she would be comfortable with a straight male radio host using the word. But pretty much as soon as we started talking, things took a surprising turn. And that's because for Molly, what matters isn't whether or not someone says the word, it's how they say it.
MOLLY MCCLOY: What I think is actually more important is that straight people listen to the way that we want to say the word. So I actually thought maybe we could try it out a little bit. I've got a couple of statements that you could read out loud if you would like to try it. One is just the title of my book.
DINGMAN: OK, all right, well, let me say the title of the book. Right from the beginning, it's: "Nine Grudges: The Spiteful Origins of the Happiest Dyke on Earth."
MCCLOY: Wait, how did that feel for you? Just out of curiosity.
DINGMAN: Well, there's kind of no way for me to just not share my own backstory with this, which is that I was in a long-term relationship for many, many years with someone who ultimately decided that their sexuality was such that it was no longer appropriate for them to be in a relationship with me. And so we parted ways, and that was the best choice for both of us. But in the context of them going on that journey, a big part of their story was claiming this word and feeling like it really felt like home for them to say it.
MCCLOY: Oh, so you have personal experience with somebody that's embraced this word.
DINGMAN: I do, but that's the first time I've ever said it out loud. [LAUGHS]
MCCLOY: Oh, interesting.
DINGMAN: Not because I'm afraid of it, but because I'm afraid of how it will sound coming out of my mouth.
MCCLOY: Right.
DINGMAN: You know what I mean?
MCCLOY: And that's, that's why I've kind of queued you up for the next statement, because, you know, there's a big difference in the way your culture uses the word versus how my culture uses the word. You want to try the top one there?
DINGMAN: I will, OK. "Dykes are happy audacious rebels who should be admired for their bravery, not be maligned or pitied."
MCCLOY: What do you — how did that one feel?
DINGMAN: Well, I get, I mean, I can't escape the context of — you know, I think of my former partner as an audacious rebel —
MCCLOY: Oh, good.
DINGMAN: — who was very brave. But I also am aware that straight people have often used this word to malign. Or — and the pity context, I wasn't aware of. But I'd be interested to hear more about that.
MCCLOY: Well, it's because I — I'm embracing the word as a positive term. Because we are not necessarily considered in society — we're considered to be sort of a dour, angry and unfashionable, would be sort of the bad rap that we get and that. And that, you know, there's that old idea that, you know, lesbians can't get a man and so there's where the pity comes in. And the truth is, well, we're one of the happiest segments of society. And I think a big part of the problem is letting us say dyke that way.
DINGMAN: Yeah, I'd actually be really interested to know what feels good to you about using that word that pushes back against this perception that you were describing.
MCCLOY: OK, you know, that word is generally used as sort of a — sort of policing people. If a woman stands up to a man, you know, if a girl stands up to a boy — teenage girl — that's what you get called. You know, and so by high school, I'm curling my hair, and I'm dating guys and fell in love with a woman when I was 18. And then I have the moment that I put in the article, which is, you know, I'm at the queer meeting at the Evergreen State College, and this beautiful punk rock woman comes in with her blue Doc Martens and she says: "Yeah, you know, this man just called me a dyke. And I've been having some good experiences with hot dyke lately, so I just told him, 'Mmm, say that again.'"
DINGMAN: [LAUGHS]
MCCLOY: And I thought: that's it.
DINGMAN: It's really standing in it in a way that is about love and inclusion and being seen. It's not against anybody, and doing that has the potential to flummox people who think they can use it as a term of hate.
MCCLOY: I think that was really well said. I think you're really, you're really getting at it here.
DINGMAN: I was very nervous the whole time. [LAUGHS]
MCCLOY: [LAUGHS] No, I think you've got it. It's about love and love of women, which surprises people. Because there are certain men that always think that lesbianism is a reaction to men, which is funny to us, because it's about women, right?
DINGMAN: But, but in your own life and, and in your study of this term, is there controversy about the idea that this term was originally used as a way of attacking people?
MCCLOY: Absolutely, and it's gone in and out of fashion for a long time. There are queer women that don't like it, don't want to take it on. And I respect that decision because within that group of people, there are people that just don't like labels at all. There are also people with extremely painful, traumatic histories where that word has been used against them.
DINGMAN: Of course.
MCCLOY: And of course they don't want to engage that pain, so I can understand those things.
DINGMAN: What is the term mean to you as distinct from, say, lesbian or queer or gay? Like, is there something about this word in particular that feels like it fits in a way that those words don't.
MCCLOY: For me, I used to be frustrated when I was trying to figure out what to call myself when I was in my 20s. I was sort of frustrated that gay men still got to be men. And I thought, but I have to become a lesbian. And makes me sound like I'm not a woman anymore, you know.
DINGMAN: Right.
MCCLOY: When I saw other women taking on dyke as a point of pride. I thought, that's a lot more exciting to me than than lesbian or anything else. It got at the rebellion of it and sort of the defiance of it. You know, I had a professor tell me in college — I was bristling at the word lesbian at the point — and he said: "Well, I love it. I love this idea of this island of women." And I thought, I bet you do. [LAUGHS] ... I like dyke better cause it's a little bit more empowering , and it just struck me as the right stance to just take something that I'm supposed to be scared of and embrace it.
DINGMAN: We've been talking about loaded words, and "Nine Grudges: The Spiteful Origins of the Happiest Dyke on Earth." So, what does happiness look like for you? Because it's kind of a bold thing to self apply no matter who you are. The idea of saying, "I'm a happy person."
MCCLOY: Yeah, that's a great question. I talk a little bit towards the end of the book that it's been difficult for me to claim happiness. I mean, we're talking some physical and verbal abuse from my dad in the book. You know, we're talking about like overcoming some of these things. And so happiness has actually been difficult for me to claim. And I'll say that what happiness to me has been 20 great years with my wife, Rebecca. And just being content. Living each day with gratitude and appreciation for what I have.
DINGMAN: Well, amen to that. Molly, thank you for this conversation.
MCCLOY: Yeah, absolutely.
