A new production at Phoenix Theatre bills itself as an evening with Winston Churchill. It’s a solo show written, directed, and performed by David Payne, in collaboration with his son, Daniel Payne.
David and Daniel joined The Show to talk about their approach to finding a unique angle on the story of Churchill — who, of course, has been extensively dramatized for decades. But the Paynes were determined to find a more humanistic approach to the character.
And in that spirit, the interview you’re about to hear takes a somewhat surprising turn partway through. We’ve decided to air it as it happened, because it is what happened, but also because it speaks to the Payne’s artistic sensibilities, starting the conversation with David Payne telling a story from early in the theatrical run of Churchill.
Full conversation
DAVID PAYNE: It was an afternoon performance, and during the interval, the house manager came up to me and said, “There’s a lady who would like to meet you. She used to be in charge of the staff at two of Churchill’s houses.”
So I said, “I’m happy to meet her.” She was 82 years old, very frail in one sense but sharp as a tack. She came up to me and I wondered, “This lady knows Churchill. What on earth is she going to say?”
She didn’t say anything. She just threw her arms around me.
SAM DINGMAN: Oh my goodness. Well, OK. Thank you for sharing that anecdote. It really stuck out to me — one, because it’s obviously a testament to the authenticity that you’re achieving in the performance. But it also made me think about something else I’ve heard you say, which is that your main goal with this production is for the audience to come out of it saying to themselves, “I felt I was with the man.”
Why is that important to you as a performer? Because I could imagine a performer saying that their goal for a production like this is for people to understand the untold story of this person’s life. And that would be equally valid. But I really like this idea of, for you, there’s something experiential about spending time in the company of this person that is meaningful to you.
DAVID PAYNE: It’s so important that people forget the actor. David Payne doesn’t matter. What matters is do they think they’re with Churchill or it’s so they’re with Churchill. And if you do that, I think you’ve won the battle.
I want people to find the humanity in the characters I play. And that’s why when he talks about his wife and so candidly in a very positive way, some ladies are even in tears.
DINGMAN: Well, you’ve anticipated my next question then, because maybe it’s in this anecdote that you just shared. But I’m very curious, as you sat down to begin writing this — because you’re also the author of this play — was there some anecdote, some tendril about him that you hit upon that made you think, “That’s the way in. That’s, the key to understanding Churchill as a man.”
DAVID PAYNE: I thought the key to understanding Churchill as a man was not to concentrate on his leadership of Great Britain during the World War, but to concentrate on the years that led up to his leadership. What was it in his life that prepared him for that role?
He actually says, as he looks back on his life, “My childhood was the most unhappy years of my life.” He had to deal with things like his parents often being distant — not because they didn’t care for him, but they were always in the public eye. His mother was in high society. His father was a politician.
He talks about that, he loved his parents, but at times it was at a distance. It’s things that say this is what shaped the man.
DINGMAN: So, speaking about the idea of of parents and Churchill’s relationship to them, it seems like an ideal moment, Daniel, to bring you into the conversation. Daniel, you are David’s son, and you are the alternate for Churchill in this production.
What for you resonates with the character of Churchill being, you know, a generation younger but still needing to connect with the idea of, again, finding the man?
DANIEL PAYNE: So I think the thing that I am most drawn to in the character — and actually I’d say that my father has parallels in this in his own personality — it’s his sensitivity. You always kind of think of a war leader as being rough and gruff and muscled, and he wasn’t.
He’s a very demure figure. He’s a tiny guy. But he was also hugely emotional. And actually, he talks about it a lot. And I’m sorry, I’m not saying you’re hugely emotional. But you are. You’re very much in touch with that. And Churchill was a great blubberer.
And I think then that probably wasn’t something that was really pushed because “stiff upper lip” and all that. And I think even today, for boys and men, you want to be masculine. And actually being sensitive and being gentle and being emotional and allowing yourself to be emotional, I think is really important. And that’s something I really love about Churchill.
DINGMAN: I would imagine that your ability to even articulate that, Daniel has to be a result of a certain modeling of a type of masculinity on your part, David, as a father.
DANIEL PAYNE: So I think it’s not something that we would necessarily talk about a lot, but it’s something you witness. And I think it’s the nature of our nuclear family. My mother, my brother and my father, we were always laughing, always really open with each other.
And I think when my mother died, that was a particular moment where I saw the vulnerability in my father. Because I’ve never seen something impact him in such a way before.
DINGMAN: Can I ask — just because you spoke about one of the humanizing elements of Churchill for you as a writer, being his relationship with his wife — how much of that was informed by your relationship and your appreciation with Daniel’s mom?
DAVID PAYNE: … Oh my God. I can’t deal with it.
DANIEL PAYNE: I’m sorry. That was my fault.
DAVID PAYNE: [crying sounds] … I’m all right. Sorry about that.
DINGMAN: I apologize for asking a very sensitive question.
DAVID PAYNE: It’s a fair question. It’s just I’m not over. I never will be over. It. She was a lot of our lives, really. And she died unexpectedly, so so you didn’t really have a chance to say goodbye.
DINGMAN: Of course.
DAVID PAYNE: I’m all right now.
DANIEL PAYNE: Sorry, I might have — I led us down that path.
DAVID PAYNE: No, you said what you felt. … But there you go. That’s what I’m talking about. And I think that helps me. When I’m talking about Winston, that does help me when I realize how important Clementine was to him. I’ve been able to explore the emotion because of my relationships. I’ve been able to explore the emotion of the tragedy, which is very important.
DINGMAN: Yes. Well, David Payne is the writer, the director and the principal performer in “Churchill,” currently playing at Phoenix Theatre. And his son, Daniel Payne is his alternate and close collaborator. Thank you both so much for this conversation.
DAVID PAYNE: Thank you.
DANIEL PAYNE: Thank you very much. It’s been great.
