A bill before the state Legislature would ban encampments on college and university campuses. The bill’s principal author, Tucson Democrat Alma Hernandez, says it’s a reaction to last spring’s wave of protests related to the war between Israel and Hamas.
In Hernandez’s opinion, the encampments where many of those protests took place were breeding grounds for antisemitism and lawlessness. On March 3, the House voted by a decisive margin to advance the legislation — but as it heads to the state Senate, it still has vocal critics on both sides of the aisle. They say Hernandez’s bill goes too far, and that its passage would endanger freedom of expression.
Representative Hernandez joined The Show to talk about the bill, as well as the controversy about her motivations.
We should note that this conversation took place before some revisions to the language of the bill, which attempt to clarify what constitutes an encampment.
Full conversation
ALMA HERNANDEZ: Some of our university campuses here in Arizona unfortunately got a bit out of hand when it had to do with these encampments, and I personally went to these in person after meeting with some of the students and hearing kind of the concerns. It was a disaster, seeing how not only our our campuses were, you know, truly being destroyed when it comes to a property that was being taken down and they were being used as part of the encampments, students behaving in in ways that, you know, have truly no place on on our college campuses, harassing students as they walked by, harassing staff, that should not be allowed anywhere.
SAM DINGMAN: So can you give me any specific examples from your experience, just, you know, being around these encampments, what types of behavior are you referring to that for you were disruptive to safety?
HERNANDEZ: Of course. So both at the Arizona State University and University of Arizona, intimidating students because they are Jewish and trying to stop them from being able to walk, you know, around the area that you're in, that's problematic. We heard from a lot of Jewish students that quite frankly, we're trying to find alternate routes to get to class. No student should ever have to, one, find an alternate route to go to class. No student should have to be in a situation where they are harassed or pushed because that did happen at Arizona State. One student was pushed at one of these encampment areas.
DINGMAN: But can I just ask you, can I just ask you, Representative Hernandez, because I understand what you're saying about people getting involved in physical altercations, assaults, obviously that's something that nobody would be supportive of. But when it comes to something like having to take a different route to walk to class, what for you is the difference between that when it comes from something like an encampment and say somebody's foot traffic being rerouted because of a protest march? Why is the encampment different?
HERNANDEZ: Well, well, one, the encampments are on college campuses, it's not, this isn't something that is protected. Like you can't, you don't have the right just because you're a student to go in and set up an encampment and say I'm not leaving the encampment until you meet my demands. Like, it's not only trashy, but they really caused damage to the university. It happened at the University of Arizona. There was construction on campus that they took apart to try to set up their structures. That's in my opinion, that's stealing.
And that's the big issue that we were dealing with on the calls with administration was, you know, that we're being, we're telling them they have to leave at 10 p.m. because they're illegally occupying that area. And they're telling us they won't leave unless we meet their demands. That is where the problem is. At that point, you're trespassing. I'm all about people's First Amendment rights. I have gone to many protests in my life. I have protested for many reasons.
DINGMAN: Can you say for you what would represent an acceptable form of protest? Cause as you know, you've had some colleagues in the Legislature on, on both sides of the aisle actually say that they're concerned about what are perhaps some unintended …
HERNANDEZ: Yeah, some of the concerns that were brought up are I don't really, I'm still trying to understand where those claims came from regarding this bill would somehow prohibit someone from tabling and talking about their club. That's not at all the case.
DINGMAN: Well, it seems like the concern Representative Hernandez is that the bill says that it would not be allowed to erect tented structures for a quote prolonged period of time. And I think, I think some folks are concerned that you might not necessarily be talking about an encampment in that case. There could be people who just want to hand out literature or people who want to speak.
HERNANDEZ: I mean, the definition of an encampment is exactly what you just said. These encampments are very different from someone setting up a tabling event on college campus trying to promote their club or whatever it is. We are not saying you can't do that. You can do that. But again, the encampments were set up with the purpose of staying overnight with the purpose of staying there for days.
Those individuals who are saying that it has anything to do with me trying to stop certain clubs from tabling on campus, you know, I, I've told them if you, if you have language for an amendment that you want me to look at, I'm happy to look at it, but that's not the intent. There are designated areas for the universities when it comes to protest.
DINGMAN: But I guess that's my, that's my question for you, Representative Hernandez is as, as you've said, you're, you're a supporter of of free speech and of protesting, and you know, it could be argued that the goal of a protest, even if it's a peaceful protest and there's not assaults or hate speech or whatever the case may be, is some form of disruption and even the issuance of demands, even if those demands are not coming from an encampment.
So I, my question for you I guess is, where is that line for you? What is it about the encampment specifically that crosses that line?
HERNANDEZ: I don't think we should be trashing our college campuses, and that's something that I've been very clear about. People bringing in couches, their coolers and really with the intent of staying there to, as you said, disrupt. If you look at the ABOR, which is the Arizona Board of Regents, if you look at their policies, this isn't something that students are just allowed to do just because they're a student. There's rules people have to follow.
What would people be saying if we had people out there who were literally calling for the death of Black individuals on college campuses? I guarantee you people would have a problem with it.
DINGMAN: Sure, of course.
HERNANDEZ: How is it any different?
DINGMAN: Well, I, I mean, is that something that you saw people openly calling for the death of Jewish students?
HERNANDEZ: Oh my goodness, yes, yes, some of the chants, I mean, I again, I went to several of these encampments, some of the terminology and some of the quotes that they were using essentially in my opinion, calling for violence. And they're literally calling for the complete, you know, destruction of Israel, and from the river to the sea and saying all all by all means necessary and calling for violence against you, that's very problematic. How is this allowed? Like how are these sign again, hate speech is protected speech. We can't stop people, but why are they double standards when it comes to Jewish community and Jewish students? We shouldn’t.
DINGMNAN: Well, I just have to ask, in the case of double standards, Representative Hernandez, I mean, you, you referenced the idea that nobody would be supportive of people making threats against Black students. But if we think back to the civil rights movement, technically a lot of the civil rights protests were illegal at the time. If you think back on the lunch counter sit-ins or Rosa Parks refusing to ride at the back of the bus, these sorts of things, technically, those protests were breaking the law. So how, how do you square those two things?
HERNANDEZ: Someone sitting at the back of the bus because they're being told you can't sit there is very different from a student being walked trying to get to class and being harassed because they're Jewish. Like I don't, that there is, in my opinion, no comparison there. You harassing someone because they are Jewish is not the same as someone sitting and protesting and not wanting to move because they're being told that they need to move. Like that is very different.
You know, we get protests here at the Capitol all the time. There's a gentleman right now walking around with a little sign. He can do that. That's, you know, that's, that's something that we're not going to stop him from doing so, but if he was running up to people and yelling in their faces and threatening, then that's a different story.
