Early in his second term, President Donald Trump signed an executive order stipulating that it is the policy of the U.S. to recognize two sexes: male and female. The order also requires federal agencies to rescind a number of guidance documents, including ones titled "The White House Toolkit on Transgender Equality," "Supporting Transgender Youth in School" and "Supporting Intersex Students: A Resource for Students, Families, and Educators."
It is that last topic that directly impacts Jay Kyle Petersen, who was born with intersex and has spent a lot of time learning about it. He’s also written a book called "A Comprehensive Guide to Intersex."
Petersen joined The Show to define their terms and what it means that someone is born with intersex.
Full conversation
JAY KYLE PETERSEN: Intersex is a term which describes a wide range of in-born biologically caused variations of sex, which are not clearly male or clearly female.
MARK BRODIE: And this is a chromosomal issue?
PETERSEN: Now we're gonna get into causes. First of all, we have no choice. We're born this way. And there's about 40 variations, but intersex always has a cause. Every one of the variations has a cause. And so the main cause of intersex during that first trimester is genetic, gene changes. And there's over 100 genes, any one of which can be changed, which it's gonna affect the development and then manifestation of primary and secondary sex characteristics.
The important thing also to learn here is that the causes of intersex, of which there's more than genes, but that's the main one, and some are not inherited and many are. Those causes diminish the power of XX and XY chromosomes, such that that is why, when someone is created in the womb with an intersex variation, the power of the causes then causes changes in that development.
This is a cascade process. So, when you have a gene change, that gene will then cause sex development changes, such as that XX or the XY, whatever, you know, the infant's gonna be born as, it doesn't, it can't exercise all of its job description, shall we say. Our bodies are just not clearly male or clearly female, and our bodies are also distinctly different from transgender. This is often conflated and it should not be.
BRODIE: How common is it for someone to be born with intersex?
PETERSEN: In 2017, the United Nations took an estimate. They said that approximately 0.5% to 1.7% of the world's population were born and living with one of those variations of intersex, and, of course, the cause of that intersex. So, what I did, Mark, I went into Phoenix, Arizona's 2022 census, and I ran the numbers. And it is estimated that approximately 822 To 27,954 people have been born with and living with some variation of intersex in Phoenix.
BRODIE: That doesn't seem like that many people.
PETERSEN: It's not. And yet, you know, they're individual human beings. So, yeah, that's right.
BRODIE: Well, as you say, like, each individual has their own characteristics, like not, not everybody born with intersex has the same genetic makeup or or it doesn't manifest itself in the same way in each person, right?
PETERSEN: That's correct.
BRODIE: What does that do for people who are trying to sort of live in the world or deal with their medical provider or gain acceptance or, you know, try to sort of be in the culture of what's going on around them?
PETERSEN: I'm gonna, I'm gonna fold in our statistics in the USA with your answer, because that'll even make it more out of the abstract and help, you know, help our answer. I used the 2024 census, you know, for the United States Census Bureau and ran those United Nations numbers. So, approximately, 17,055 to 5, 781,886 people have been born with and living with some variation, and of course the cause in the United States of America.
These folks, including myself, there's a lot of challenges. First of all, doctors don't get trained in residency, hardly at all. That's one problem, because you see the causes can also affect other biology in a person such as electrolytes. There's also cholesterol or hematocrit in the blood, or up to 16 different hormones can be affected, depending upon that cause. Some people have one or two, some have three or four.
So, there needs to be individualized medical treatment plans. Doctors need to know what they're doing. They need to listen, and my research has shown that nearly all the folks, at least that I talked to, small sample, maybe 250 folks out of the way, they don't want to go to doctors. They don't like how they've been treated, you know, and, and so they don't trust doctors. I've been treated badly and I've been treated great, you know, and this is about health. So, there's a problem with lack of education with psychiatrists, psychologists, you know, licensed clinical social workers, doctors. And it's not even a psychological issue, it's about bodies.
So this, this is a problem because a lot of it's conflated or confused, and there just isn't an understanding of what we are, and actually it's a complicated topic, you know, and we're born this way without a choice. So, you get like folks who don't know, parents can be under stress. Doctors, politicians, decisions, everything from bathrooms to, you know, binary birth certificates. It's a real challenge.
BRODIE: Yeah, well, I, and I would imagine as you referenced earlier that, you know, there are all sorts of genes that go into human bodies, and if people who are born with intersex have different genetic makeups, not going to the doctor, it seems like it would be a problem not just to to make sure that that people are are healthy in general, but also there might be other underlying health issues that need to be dealt with and if you don't go to the doctor, you're not gonna get them dealt with.
PETERSEN: That's right. I've talked to folks with that, and you know, it's, it's not good.
BRODIE: Well, so what do you think about, what goes through your mind, for example, when you hear the president and the federal government say that it is the policy of this country that there are two biological sexes?
PETERSEN: Well, I think about these statistics. We're here, and I also think about the biology of the causes which change sex characteristics in that fetal process, it's a fact. I mean it goes on, and then that we're born this way. So I, it's painful. It's really painful. It hurts a lot. And I just think that perhaps they don't know, you know, perhaps the temperature may be really hot right now and it is towards, you know, transgender folks and and people just may not understand us, you know, because because right now, I mean it's so painful.
This is a country I served. I served ... national service as a case manager with the homeless veterans. You know, and I think about my father, who served in World War II against the Nazis, and my grandfather who served in World War I against fascism. I think about their service and my service. And this is a country I love, and it hurts me so much, you know, I've cried tears. I don't even know if we have human civil rights. I don't even know if we have protection from discrimination for housing, or employment or public facilities, you know. It's pretty scary, and it's anxiety provoking, and this affects people's mental, emotional and physical health.
EDITOR'S NOTE: Due to a transcription error, the story has been updated to correct the number of people with intersex in the U.S. according to census and United Nations numbers.
