The Maricopa County Library District is in the midst of a pilot project at its Queen Creek library, which aims to allow parents to have more of a say in what books their kids check out.
Under the program, parents can go to the library and fill out a form, listing specific titles they don’t want their kids to check out. This applies to families in which the kids’ library account is linked to their parents’. Officials say they’ll solicit feedback from library district staff and look at it over the summer, and that if it seems to be going well, the program could be expanded to other libraries.
Supporters compare this to the kind of parental controls you might find on phones and tablets, restricting websites or apps their kids can use. But critics worry it’s more of a slippery slope.
The Show got two perspectives on the issue. Thomas Galvin, chair of the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors, joined The Show to talk about his thought process was behind formulating this policy.
Full conversation with Thomas Galvin
MARK BRODIE: What problem was the board trying to solve?
THOMAS GALVIN: Yeah, well, you know, people hear about the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors and always wondering what we do, but we actually serve on a variety of different boards. Some of them get more news than others, including for Chase Field, we sit and operate the stadium district, but we also sit and operate the library district. And what we do is we work with towns and municipalities and cities throughout the Valley.
But in some cases we operate our own libraries, and so in this instance we operate a library in Queen Creek. And what we do is try to be responsive to different questions or concerns that we hear from different members of the community. In a county of 4.5 million people, there's a wide variety of opinions, and different towns and municipalities have different issues. So, what we're doing here is a pilot program for just one of the libraries.
BRODIE: Had you been hearing complaints from folks in and around Queen Creek about parents being worried about their kids checking out certain books?
GALVIN: We have, and we've heard concerns and complaints from parents throughout the county. But we definitely are hearing it more than others in Queen Creek. And so, what we try to do is create programs or ideas, or in this case, a pilot program that are responsive to that particular community.
BRODIE: So obviously there's been a lot of discussion over the past number of years about libraries and what should or should not be in them. I'm wondering if the program that you put in place was a compromise, if there were other ideas on the table that maybe you decided not to go with in favor of this?
GALVIN: Yeah, well, I think one thing people need to understand — and I think a lot of people appreciate this — is that there's a difference between a public library and curriculum at schools. And so, a lot of news attention that we hear about regarding libraries is curriculum in schools and how schools really know what books they put in their libraries.
We're a public library. We're not in the business of banning books. We're not in the business of denying books that people want to access. But, what this program doing it's a program — it's a pilot program for parents and the program is the parent comes in and signs a form in the library. Come in actually sign a physical form, show and prove that you are the parent or legal guardian of that kid. You have ID, you have to show that. And so, let us know the title of the book that you do not want your child to have access to. This allows parents to be proactive, and it's not the county being reactive.
BRODIE: So in this case, I couldn't go in and to the library and say, "I don't want my kid reading this genre of book." It has to be a specific title that the librarian would then or the system would not allow my child to check out.
GALVIN: Right, for checking out. And so this book would be tied to your account, which is tied to your child. So, if there's a book that you want to make sure that your child is not bringing home, you're just letting them know. And so, this is the parent controlling the account of their own child. Which to me, respects parental rights but also respects the rights of other people who, if they do want to access the book or don't have an issue of their child accessing the book, can do so. I think this is a win-win for all sides.
BRODIE: Is there anything to stop a child who maybe knows that their parent has a particular book on this list or maybe they don't know from just taking the book off the shelf and sitting at a table and reading it?
GALVIN: Well, that also comes down to parental responsibility, right? My wife and I are raising a young son and, for us, we have to be very careful. And it's incumbent upon us to make sure that we know what our child is accessing, especially with screen time. This is tablets, this is television, computers and of course their cellphones, which are just right there at a moment's notice. A child can just pick it up.
But when you have your child at the library, I would think ostensibly that you're nearby or you're gonna make sure that your child is with someone responsible. But this is about the checking out of books. That's all this program does, and once again it's a pilot program being tested at one library. Just started on May 1, so we don't even have information or statistics yet on how it's going. But we think this is something that's worthwhile to help parents just be more comfortable with how their kids are checking out books from libraries.
BRODIE: It kind of raises the question though, based on what you said, that ostensibly a parent would be either with their child or have the child at the library or somebody they trust. If that's the case, what's the need for having a restriction on what the child can check out?
GALVIN: Yeah, well, sometimes kids are able to check out a whole pile of books. And I remember when I went to the library with my brother, there was a whole bunch of books that I would love to check out and bring home. You know, to be honest, my mom didn't probably look at all of them, but these are “Encyclopedia Brown" or “The Great Brain” or, you know, Beverly Cleary books. But, there are parents out there who obviously have concerns, because, once again, their child is in a government facility, it's in a public facility.
If this helps the parent feel more comfortable or feel more secure with what their child is accessing or seeing from a library, then my answer is: “Why not?” And for any critics of our program, I don't know what their criticism could be. Because this is self-directed from that family, no one else is affected. If you don't want to participate in the pilot program, you have nothing to worry about.
BRODIE: So, you mentioned the idea of school curriculums before. I'm curious if the fact that this is, as you say, a public library versus even a school library, does that change the calculus and how you went about trying to craft this policy?
GALVIN: Yes, because we have to comply with the law, right? We have to observe the First Amendment. And we cannot just declare what we're gonna, you know, ban this book or we're gonna ban that book, because it's a slippery slope. What one family might like another family may not like, so it's a balancing act. We also, of course, have to consult with our attorneys and we're represented by the county attorney's office, so everything we do is above board and legal.
So, if there's anyone who is gonna hurl accusations at us that says that we're gonna do something that's veering on the side of censorship or book banning, I'm just gonna say to them, you know, “We had to have this vetted by our County Attorney's Office. This is above board.”
BRODIE: So you mentioned the, the risk of a slippery slope here, and I could imagine some people might think, “OK, well, you're doing this pilot project now, like, It doesn't seem like that big of a stretch to say, ‘OK, if this is successful in some people's eyes, maybe taking books off the shelves might be next.’” Is that something that you would support in any way?
GALVIN: Well, I don't think that — I think that is a stretch. I don't think that is something that should be concerned about. What you have seen is a board — so, if there's a group of people or if there's a constituent that constituency that says you guys need to ban these books, we've categorically rejected that. Once again, we're not going to be violating people's constitutional rights. At the end, we are a governmental body operating a public library. Since the time of Benjamin Franklin, this has been going on. So this program, I think, is something that should be praised and should be celebrated and should be emulated around the country if it's successful.
BRODIE: How do you define success for something like this?
GALVIN: A success is if parents come back to us and say, “Hey, we found this very helpful.” One of the things is if parents are going to come to us and complain that we have these books, we're going to say to them, “Hey, did you sign up for this list?” It holds people accountable if they're going to be lodging complaints against the library district for even having these books.
But if your argument is like, “Hey, I'm concerned that my child is going to check this out,” we're going to say, “Well, under this pilot program in this jurisdiction, there's an ability for you to make sure that your child doesn't check it out.”
Full conversation with Brodie Hubbard
Despite Galvin's assurance the program is not a step toward censorship, Brodie Hubbard is still worried about that. Hubbard is a writer and parent of two elementary school-aged kids living in Queen Creek.
BRODIE HUBBARD: My concern with the Parental Choice Program, which I actually think is better titled “Parental Restriction Program,” is I have fundamental issues with it based on the recommendations of librarians and library associations. But, I also do not trust the architects of this measure, and by that I mean specifically the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors.
BRODIE: So, are you concerned that they might expand the scope of what they're doing now, or maybe expand what they're doing now to other places?
HUBBARD: I think if you look at who makes up the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors and the groups they have sought out to discuss literature with, it's very clear, very transparent, what kind of books that they're targeting and that they do, intend to expand this program, expand the restrictions, and expand the measure across the state.
BRODIE: So, I spoke earlier with the Maricopa County supervisor, Thomas Galvin, and he basically said [they're] not looking to take books off the shelf, [he's] not in favor of that, [they're] not going to do that. It sounds like you're not entirely convinced?
HUBBARD: I would like to believe that Galvin is telling the truth, but unfortunately we look at his buddy, Debbie Lesko and her conversations with the Arizona Women of Action. And I can't trust that there is more on the horizon with this, as far as what they're looking to ban and, well, sorry, “restrict,” but they're calling it restriction, they're calling it parental choice, but, I think this pilot program is a slippery slope.
BRODIE: Well, so let me ask you about this program specifically, because the way it works is a parent who doesn't want their kid to check out a book, goes in and writes down the specific title of the book, and that gets input into the system. But, for a parent like you, who it sounds like you don't have concerns about what your kids are reading or don't want to restrict what they're reading, you just don't participate in this and your kid is free to check out whatever they want.
HUBBARD: Well, let me be clear, I don't think that opposing the parental choice program means it's a free-for-all. It just means that librarians should not be put in the position to enforce restrictions, when really it's the job of parents to be involved in their kids' lives and have conversations with them about what they're checking out, what they're reading, and I think we just need to be a little more realistic about what's actually on the library shelves.
The proponents of this measure are acting like it's pornography on the shelves, and that's just not the case. It's not the kind of books that are being targeted by measures like this, it's overall books about black history, about LGBTQ issues, it's books with protagonists of color, women of color primarily. Those are the books that are on these lists that people like Debbie Lesko and groups like Arizona Women of Action are compiling.
BRODIE: Well, supporters of this though say this is not putting librarians in the middle. It's letting parents say, “I don't want my child to check this out,” and when they go to check out, the system says, “sorry, child, you're not allowed to,” with librarians not really being involved in it.
HUBBARD: If a parent doesn't want their kid to check something out, then that parent should be involved enough to have that conversation with their kid. When you impose that restriction on the librarians to enforce, which, whether it's a librarian doing it in person or the technology doing it, that is pushing off that responsibility onto the library.
BRODIE: So it sounds like what you're saying is, for example, if one of your children went to the library, you would be with them and if they wanted to check out a book that maybe you didn't think was age appropriate or content appropriate or anything like that, you would have a conversation with them about why that is as opposed to putting it on this list to say, “OK, you're just not allowed to check it out.” It sounds like you're saying that parents should have those conversations, as opposed to signing up for this program and forcing the library to sort of get in the middle of it. Am I hearing you correctly on that?
HUBBARD: Absolutely. I believe it's up to the parent to make the effort and be involved in their kids' lives and educations. They should know what their kids are doing, what they're interested in, but even if they're not, what about the kids who come from horribly oppressive households that want to restrict everything? The library should be an oasis, a center for rescue from that, where they can go explore ideas that maybe their parents don't agree with. Maybe it's OK for our kids to have their own ideas.
But I'm not even concerned about inappropriate things on the shelves. That's kind of a myth, that's kind of a a smokescreen for what proponents of these measures, of these restrictions, are are actually trying to keep out of the hands of our kids.
BRODIE: How big of a topic of conversation is this in your town? Like, have you talked to friends or or neighbors who either have signed up for certain books on this list, or have decided not to?
HUBBARD: I will concede that the group of people I know and talk to might not look like your typical conservative Queen Creek resident. And so, my friends, many of them who are educators and librarians, you know, none of us are signing up our kids for this. None of us are worried about our kids getting something terrible off the shelf, and we're not going to make up a restriction list. And we also, you know, frankly don't mind, we encourage, in fact, if they do read books and stories about people who are not like them, you know. And so, the conversations I've had find this measure kind of scary.
