This week on The Show’s CultureCap, it’s Fan Fusion week here in Phoenix, the annual gathering of pop culture icons and their fans. This year’s event will feature appearances by icons from the world of fantasy film and TV shows, comics, and comics that have been adapted into fantasy film and TV shows — people like Elijah Wood, who played Frodo Baggins in the "Lord of the Rings" films, Hayden Christensen from the "Star Wars" prequels, and Brent Spiner, better known as Data on “Star Trek: The Next Generation.”
One of the hallmarks of Fan Fusion is people dressing up like their favorite fictional characters. It’s just one of the ways that events like Fan Fusion - and the various online communities where fans gather to celebrate the imaginary worlds they love - create a kind of liminal space for conversations and interactions that can’t happen anywhere else.
To talk about why those spaces matter, The Show sat down with Nasha Smith, professor and Ph.D. student at the Cronkite School of Journalism, and Kim Holst, a clinical professor of law and also a Ph.D. student at Cronkite.
Full conversation
SAM DINGMAN: So, I wanted to start by asking you both about your personal fandoms because you're not just experts in this, you're also fans yourselves. So Kim, let's start with you. What's something that you consider yourself to be a fan of?
KIM HOLST: Sure. So I have become a Swiftie. I didn't start out as Swiftie. My daughter was a Swiftie, and then just, I would say over the course of the years leading up to "Reputation," I got pulled into that fandom, and it is a community that is very interesting and very varied, and so I now proudly own that I'm a Swiftie.
DINGMAN: OK, OK. Can you think of any kind of pivotal moment? Was it just sort of a gradual slide into Swiftie-dom or?
HOLST: That's a great question. So I think I was a fan of her music. I enjoyed listening to it, but I didn't know that much about her. My daughter was obsessed with all of the, the Easter eggs and things that that Swifties love, and so I kind of got pulled into it, but I really have to say it was when she did release the "Reputation" album. And the way that that was rolled out and all of the things that she did to include her fans in the rollout of that is really what pulled me in. It was like there was a connection between Taylor Swift and me, as a fan.
DINGMAN: Yeah, yeah, OK, well, we're definitely going to talk more about that. Nasha, how about you?
NASHA SMITH: Oh, I don't think we have enough time for my fandoms, but so twofold, cause I'm a massive sports fan and a massive entertainment fan. I'm a huge New York Yankees fan. I'm a super fan for sure. I will travel to New York for the games. I am in probably every Yankee fan space, subreddits, everywhere.
And musicians, I love music. I'm an OG Eminem stan from the beginning, from the late '90s. I adore U2, like growing up in Saint Lucia as a child, that was rare, you know, rock music, we're more into Calypso, ... so I was definitely an anomaly. But I adore U2, and I love The Killers. I consider myself a "Victim" and I have seen them multiple times.
DINGMAN: Is that what fans call themselves?
SMITH: Unfortunately, yes, we're just, you know, it's not the best, but we're just going to roll with it.
DINGMAN: OK, so we have Swifties, Victims, stans, already a number of kind of in-group language frameworks that are kind of a part of what we're going to talk about today. So let's back up a second and talk about Fan Fusion and what events like this represent, and kind of why they matter in fandom spaces.
Kim, let me start with you on this. Talk a little bit about why a real world gathering of like-minded folks is significant.
HOLST: Yeah, I think for a lot of reasons people have felt isolated, you know, obviously in recent times because of the pandemic. But I think, you know, when you have this thing that you know other people really enjoy, there's some fulfillment in being able to contact them online, but when you get to see people in person and you get to feel that energy of somebody who's just as excited or more excited than you are about that same topic, you form these connections.
And part of one of the reasons why this kind of fandom has really blown up is I think people really have allowed it to be part of their identity. They find some kind of resonance, whether it's emotional or cultural, etc. And they adopt that identity. And I think that's true, definitely even in the sports space, as Nasha was talking about the the entertainment space and and being able to find people that have that identity just like you is a bonding experience that I think is akin to, you know, going to a stadium and having that that live experience with with like-minded fans.
DINGMAN: Nasha, do you accept that sports comparison?
SMITH: Oh, absolutely, especially again, I always have to bring in my experience from Saint Lucia because like I said, I'm a Yankees fan. We don't have baseball in Saint Lucia. So, I was really solitary in my fandom. It was very difficult for there would other people for me to connect with.
So, when I moved to the U.S. for school and I finally went to a Yankees game, it was just so eye opening for me and so refreshing because I finally had, you know, at home, people would entertain me, they would listen to me talk about, but meeting other people who had, you know, they shared the same grievances, they were excited about the same things, the same players.
There's nothing like finally finding your family, you know, outside of your regular family, you know, that community is just so important because, depending on geography, you know, is not the only way to find community. Sometimes you need these people that share the experience and you can't, depending on where you are, you can't always find that within, you know, your area.
So, it is something like a Fan Fusion. It makes sense because you have sometimes very niche interests that no one else will understand, and then when you meet and you connect with those people who you feel seen, you feel like finally somebody understands, somebody cares about what I'm talking about.
HOLST: Right, like they recognize the amount of detail you put into that costume or, you know, things that your family is like, “Oh yeah, that's nice,” they're humoring you and supporting you, but like that person who recognizes it, that spark, that moment is like so much more meaningful.
SMITH: Even if you disagree, you feel like at least you know what I'm talking about and we can have meaningful conversation about this.
DINGMAN: There's a starting point for the disagreement that is a shared love and passion. You also said something really important there, Nasha, that I don't want to let go by, which is you were very fortunate to have a family that was like, “OK, Nasha, tell us about the Yankees, you know, we will listen and nod and smile. We're happy you've found this thing, I guess.”
There's a difference between being, I'll use the word “tolerated,” in that sense, and the kind of experience you might have at Yankee Stadium, say, or at Fan Fusion where it's not toleration, tolerance, it's recognition, even sometimes literally embrace. Like one of my favorite things about going to, I'm a big Baltimore Orioles fan, so I don't know if we can actually be friends, Nasha, I'm so sorry.
SMITH: But, for now.
DINGMAN: For now, yes. I will go to games at Oriole Park at Camden Yards, and if something good or bad happens, I will turn to the person next to me and just hug them, or they will turn to me and just, like, have tears in their eyes and be like, “can you believe what just happened?” And it doesn't feel weird. It doesn't feel weird and there's something very, I'll say healthy, I think about that space. Kim, would you agree?
HOLST: I definitely agree and I think there's something in that like, that shared knowledge of a topic where you can jump into a conversation that other people, you have to explain and give them all the background and they're not just not invested. Where like, if you know, I'm a Minnesota Vikings fan because I grew up there, like you're like the 1998 playoffs and like that's all you have to say and just everybody knows exactly what that is and like that pain and everything, like they share that experience with you. There is something about that that's just like, “yes, I can be comfortable and relax and have this conversation and I don't have to explain every single thing and why that's, why that matters, why it's important.”
DINGMAN: Yeah, you know, as we're talking about this, I'm reminded of the joke you see online sometimes when we talk about sports fans, where sports fans will sit around and play the game that gets referred to as “let's remember some guys,” where, you know, you just sit with some sports fans and you say like, “ugh, the '98 playoffs,” and it's, you know, it sometimes gets made fun of online, I think, as, “look at these people, they can't talk about their emotions.”
But I think what's actually going on in those moments is there's an emotional shorthand. The barrier is already down and you know the code word to just get into this deep well of feeling that only makes sense, Nasha, as you were putting it to your family.
SMITH: Absolutely, and I think of it, this type of fandom also sort of transcends generations, because I teach teenagers a lot of the time, and last semester I literally mentioned the 2004 incident and my three young Yankees fans in the class were immediately like, “oh my God,” 'cause they knew, and you know, we all grew up at different points. I'm significantly older than them, but we had that connection immediately. And it's just such a wonderful thing. You don't have to, this is truly where your age, all these things, you know, the fandom transcends that.
HOLST: It's really humanizing like, “oh, you're not just the professor at the front of the room, you have these experiences that I can relate to.”
DINGMAN: Absolutely. So, lest we veer too far into sports talk here, I wanna make a difference, I think, and tell me if you both disagree between sports fandom, which I think in a broad context is more acceptable, and the kind of fandoms we find at something like Fan Fusion where we're talking about what is often shorthanded as “geek culture.” Kim, what do you think the important differences are there?
HOLST: Yeah, well, I think that I agree. I think sports fandom and sports kind of being invested in the team has always been a lot more acceptable. I mean, I don't have any literature to back this up, you know, offhand, but I do think there's something about that kind of hetero, masculine group of people in the, you know, typical sports fandom that somehow makes that more acceptable.
Whereas as you described it, like this geek culture kind of the the people who felt like outcasts, people who are marginalized, I think often find themselves in these types of fan situations a lot more comfortable. They found people who have similar interests that are maybe not mainstream interests, and so I think that the development of some of these fan communities has largely started with marginalized people, as opposed to people who are part of a mainstream fandom.
DINGMAN: Nasha, do you think that is why something like Fan Fusion might be particularly resonant for fans of things like comics, because it's maybe a little harder to find a common language with folks in the “real world?”
SMITH: Absolutely, something like comics, you know, it's really niche for some people. And honestly, that type of fandom was traditionally mocked, traditionally, you know, really derided. So, something like Fan Fusion is very important because this is where again you can come to find people who are aligned with you. You find people who will engage in conversation with you. You find your people, you find your home, and it is very important because, like Kim was talking about it, there's a lot of marginalized people, a lot of people who have sort of felt maybe isolated by their fandom, especially depending on how deep the fandom goes, because some people do make this part of their identity and it does sort of isolate them from from just regular people who don't have these interests.
So, something like Fan Fusion where you can, you can feel, I mean, they're dressing up, you know, and they're going all out and they're dressing up. They get to listen to these panels, they get to meet these people. It really is the place where you can probably feel you're most comfortable in that fandom.
HOLST: Right. Well, so Nasha was talking about how lots of these comic book fans and, and things like that were, were kind of derided or made fun of, and I think one of the reasons why this type of fan space is really important is because they've identified not only with each other, but with the characters that they that they are fans of, the ones that they that they dress up as and things like that.
They see the kind of redemption arcs or the hero arcs that they have. And I think that being able to, you know, kind of play out that fantasy, in a space where other people accept it and aren't like, “You are not Spider-Man.” They're like, “no, that is you're the best Spider-Man,” you know, I think is also an important part of it, right?
DINGMAN: Well, and that makes me think about the fact, and Nasha, tell me if you agree, that a lot of times the fans, or sorry, the characters that fans resonate with are social outcasts, people who were born with some sort of physical or emotional weakness. Somebody like Spider-Man is a great example, until he was bit by this radioactive spider, he was just kind of a geek, if you will. And then, now all of a sudden, he gets this arc of redemption and he gets to kind of step into his full self. Nasha, do you think that's fair to say that a lot of this has to do with a kind of emotional resonance with the journey of the characters?
SMITH: Absolutely. I think first of all, we do love a relatable character. We like someone we can see ourselves in, and somebody that we can kind of take that journey with, even if it sort of gives you hope. Because you're especially when you think of kids who have been bullied, when you think of people who have sort of been outcasts, when they see that eventually there's the hero arc, you do eventually get that redemption. You can rebuild yourself, you can change your life, you can do that.
It sort of, it carries them through. It sort of gives them that hope, that's something to look forward to in the future, and it does resonate with them. We do like to relate to whether it's a character, whether it's our favorite artist. We do like something where we can find a connection with that person.
DINGMAN: But, can I ask you just to go back to the sports context for a moment, I hadn't thought about this until we got onto this line of conversation, but I'm curious what you think, Nasha, I mean, when you watch somebody like say, Aaron Judge, who plays for the Yankees or you know, in my case for the Orioles, it would probably be Gunner Henderson. These are people who I have nothing in common with. They are extraordinary physical specimens, they, their skill level is elite in a way that is sort of impossible for me to even think about, and that doesn't bother me at all. I still feel this kind of connection to them, which strikes me as kind of a critical difference here.
SMITH: Absolutely, but I think in sports as well, there's a difference there in that. We just want to be adjacent sometimes to that power. When, you know, as a Yankee fan, yes, I can boast to other people that, my player, my team, we have that kind of power. We are, you know, they call them the evil empire for the longest while because they were so dominant. And I love that because, I mean, I have literally not a share in the Yankees, but as a fan, I feel like I am 100%, “this is we a situation.”
HOLST: You're part of the team when you're a sports fan. You're, you're not on the field, but you're an important part of what makes them successful. They can't do without the fans, kind of mentality. So, you're like part of it.
SMITH: You’re a part of their power.
DINGMAN: A part of the evil.
SMITH: I am part of their power. I am, you know, continuing the conversations about them when they get off the field offline. 'Cause you know, it's, it's why we feel, I mean, I'm still here depressed over the fifth inning of Game 5 of the series. You know, we feel that loss as deeply as we feel that jubilation when our team has conquered. So I feel like it's, yes, I can't relate to not one of these men, but I feel adjacent to that kind of power. I feel like we're in this together and when they succeed, almost like I have been successful as well.
DINGMAN: Yes, yes. Well, I'm curious, to get both of your takes on this, I mean, we're talking about fandom in part because there's this giant event happening downtown that, you know, thousands of people are going to come to. The tickets are very expensive. It's something that as you were pointing out, Nasha, crosses generations, people come with their kids and everything. It's like, you know, not just young people, it's parents. It seems like, again, broadly speaking, we're living in a time when it's cool to be a fan. But that was not always the case, right?
HOLST: Right, for sure. I mean, if you think back to when Elvis became big or the Beatles became big and you saw them on TV, all the screaming fans, you know, the media was calling him crazy. We're like “oh they're they're crazed and, you know, we need to be concerned about their deviant behavior,” and and today, you know, when I see the the fans walking to Fan Fusion because I work in downtown Phoenix, I'm like, “oh, what's — oh yeah, they're just headed to Fan Fusion.” I don't immediately think, “wow, there are people dressed in, like, alien costumes or, you know, whatever it is, and I should probably call someone because they clearly need help.”
It is definitely more accepted than it was and I think part of that is because a lot of the artists, the entertainers, etc., have really bought into fan culture in a way that I don't think existed before and I, I probably would credit social media with a lot of this, that there's a lot more connection between artists and fans. But you know, there was a time when people were writing things like fan fiction and some artists were like, “no, stop, that's my creative material.” And now you get people who are like, “oh, share that, please. I'm putting that out there. I want to be part of this.”
DINGMAN: Yeah, Nasha, I know this is something you've thought about a lot. There is this idea that fans are in some ways kind of the new cultural critics.
SMITH: They are, you first, going off of Kim's point, artists definitely want to have, it's almost like having your own army, your own little defense. To be fair, Adele's people, I believe, are called Adele's Army, and BTS Army as well. So you, you do have that defense, but yes, the fans have now become the new cultural critics.
And you see that even in traditional journalism, and for example, you can't, if you go back and you just read, you know, traditionally journalism, music criticism was very objective, but now you will read the a Justin Timberlake album review, and three quarters of that review references his relationship with Britney Spears, because it's been written by a Britney Spears super fan. And you see a clear delineation between fans of Cardi B and Nicki Minaj and how they, you know, it's almost like you can't be a crossover fan anymore. You have to pick your size and you need to stick with that.
But the fans are not the ones who are, I suppose, are the arbiters of taste. They're the ones who people are, people are hardly looking to, traditional music critics anymore. It's the fans, it's the TikToks. It's the, you have leaders in these fan groups. You have leaders in the Beyhive, leaders in the Swiftie space, right?
DINGMAN: Beyhive are Beyoncé fans, for those who aren't aware.
SMITH: But, you have these people who kind of, you know, and to Taylor Swift's credit, she was one of these people who really early on cultivated that kind of fan base where she would have sleepovers for fans to have a first listen. So you had these people who had the privilege of they've gotten to listen to this, so they're now coming to share with the rest of the group, “listen, I've heard this, this is what it is,” so they're driving the conversation now as opposed to, I mean, this is why a lot of them, you know, super fans are now, the studios are now having them interview the stars. They're having them interview the talents, as opposed to just the traditional entertainment journalists.
DINGMAN: I'm curious to know, I mean, from both of your standpoints, do you think we lose anything, by dint of erasing that objective as you were putting it, Nasha, boundary. Do you think there's a way in which the conversation becomes maybe more passionate but less nuanced?
SMITH: Absolutely, it's, first of all, you're losing ethics. If you're losing ethics, you're losing objectivity, you're, you're losing just the traditional practices of journalism. There is something to be said for having gone through some kind of journalism training and knowing how to talk about certain issues surrounding certain artists and how to, you don't necessarily have to be, you can be honest without it bordering on toxicity.
And that's, I think the problem with the fans now driving this because, again, when you have people who have maybe a fandom that has a passionate opposition to because that's the thing, it's almost as if that person is impeding their fav's progress or their fav's success, so they cannot be complimentary. You can only have one female rap artist, essentially. And so if I support Cardi, I cannot, I'm not truly supporting Nicki. That's the mentality, and that's where you kind of lose the plot.
EDITOR'S NOTE: The story has been updated to correct the spelling of Hayden Christensen's name.
