Other Men Need Help podcast host Mark Pagán explores the male performance

Mark Pagán, creator and host of the podcast Other Men Need Help, describes the show as an investigation of the “emblems, habits and struts of the male performance.”

Pagán's done episodes about feeling insecure around men who are taller than him, dealing with the fact that his girlfriend makes more money than he does and whether or not to use exclamation points and terms of affection in emails to male friends.

He asks questions about manhood that we don’t often hear in mainstream discourse that tends to categorize men as either emotionally-stunted comic book nerds or raging hyper-online incels.

Pagán joined The Show to talk about it, including revisiting a clip from the podcast's very first episode in 2017.

Full Conversation

SAM DINGMAN: Mark, good morning.

MARK PAGÁN: Good morning. That's wild to hear that. That's from the first episode in 201, I haven't listened to that in, I don't know, eight years.

DINGMAN: Yes, a very deep cut. Well, the reason that I wanted to kind of feature that moment is because I think it does so many things that help illustrate what I love so much about your show, which is not just the fact that it keenly observes the odd dynamics in what you call “the male performance.” But it also acknowledges the fact that this is your own perspective. You include yourself in the attempt to figure out what in the world the male performance is. And to start, I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about — in addition to that moment with that couple — where does that come from? For you personally, what got you interested in this idea?

PAGÁN: I'll try to, I'll try to make it brief, but it really— I grew up with a lot of women in the house, and I think I just was socialized towards things that the women in the house were really interested in. And I didn't fully associate with, like, I wasn't a sporty kid or anything like that. And then adding to that, my dad died when I was 14, and my mom was faced with raising a boy into a man.

She gave me two things. She gave me my father's razor and a subscription to Esquire magazine — sort of like, figure it out. [LAUGHS] And so I spent my life — and this started even before my father passed away — but I spent my life really, kind of like my head pressed against the glass, looking at how masculine works. How can it be masculine? What does it mean?

And by the time I got into my 30s, I had this revelation. I had a really, like, almost like a gut punch of: I've been lied to. I am not hearing anybody talk about the experiences that are going on in my head. And I know other men, other people, are going through this. And so I, as somebody who grew up on men's media and sort of like masculinity and media, I thought, what would it look like if I did this and made a project in which it was using, sort of like the structure or the tools of like a men's magazine or a show about men? And being completely transparent, like, people going, “I can't believe you shared that.”

DINGMAN: Yes. 

PAGÁN: Not in a way of being shocking, but in a way of going, like, “Am I the only one here?”

DINGMAN: right? Well, that makes me think about just a couple of examples from the show that I think illustrate that really nicely. You did an episode once about feeling insecure around men who are taller than you. You did an episode about the fact that your girlfriend, now your wife, at the time, was making more money than you did. And one particularly memorable one about whether or not to use exclamation points in terms of affection in emails to male friends. I mean these, to my ear, at least, were the parts of masculinity that, as you said, are extremely active concerns, but that aren't talked about very much.

You started this in 2017. And I'm curious, you know, what was it like to have these ideas received then, and how has that evolved through to 2025? 

PAGÁN: Well, it's really interesting the timing, because this came out in September 2017. And we had a nice response to it. But a lot of people started saying, “Wow, you really you're responding to this current administration and the #METOO movement.” I really wasn't. I mean, this is just, you know, there was a long, as with any project, there was a long, a long on ramp to getting it out there. But, you know, it was coming in at that time. And so I think there was, maybe in fall of 2017 on a, you know, a certain demographic of people were interested in hearing this very transparent, sort of like, ownership side of masculinity.

DINGMAN: Yeah.

PAGÁN: And what I've seen changed a little bit since 2017 — and this is anecdotal — but I'm seeing at least more men understanding conditions that are making them feel lonely or depressed or disconnected — whatever it is. It's up to, obviously, it's up to an individual to make the changes in their life. The things that you know, this project, which is now eight years old, and we're talking in 2025, the thing that still alarms me is the discourse is maybe even worse around masculinity. It's I think, commonly, like, very antagonistic. You know, like a term like “toxic masculinity” is being used ad nauseum, to a point where it means nothing. And in some ways, people are now embracing it. … Saying, “You're gonna call me that, I'm gonna be that.”

Going back to 2017 our plan was like, I think the problem that I was finding in media, too — and which we're getting even more of now — is that none of this was talking about the day-to-day experiences. It was all think pieces about public figures and big-picture work. And it's so easy for us to look at somebody and say, “Well, I'm not gonna be Harvey Weinstein. I will never have that kind of power. So the microaggressions in my life, I don't have to have to examine.” And I think … it’s getting even worse. It's not focusing on the introspective or the or like the again, the day to day masculinity of our lives.

… And lastly, it's optimization and self improvement are the ways to be a man. And that I think has become even more announced over the last eight years.

DINGMAN: Yeah, well, so let's talk a little bit more about this, because I know this is something you've been thinking about more recently. You mentioned this idea of toxic masculinity, which is a way that folks on the more progressive side of things often frame the conversation. And you've said that toxic masculinity is a phrase that you purposely do not use in Other Men. Why is that?

PAGÁN: Correct. Well I think No. 1, it's become asinine. It is a go to phrase. I have Google alerts for a number of phrases — masculinity being one of them. How is it being used in just the general discourse? And the majority of Google alerts related to masculinity include the word toxic.

And it is associated with everything. “My child is not brushing his teeth every night. He's on a path to being a toxic male.” You know, all these things. And it's like, what does this even mean anymore? And I think that the main thing too, is that if you're approaching a group of people, if you are approaching them, regardless of what their position in the world has been. But in particular, if you're approaching men who have, traditionally, we have been in power, and you are immediately attacking them, I don't care who you are, it is not going to land.

So what is the intention of using toxic masculinity? If the intention is inviting in, then I think the initial ways in which we're using that language. Should not put people up in a defensive stance. Yeah, I don't disagree with sort of, like, the general discourse of the way that we are raised as boys and right things that happen in our lives that make us, you know, make us gotta work, and make us have to make changes as we get older. But again, I think that the way of approaching it is completely wrong by using that as the go to phrase.

DINGMAN: Yeah, well, and you know, I'm curious as you look at the other side of the coin, the sort of more what is often referred to as the manosphere side of the conversation. I know that one of the phrases you have sort of raised your eyebrow at is this idea of high value men versus high value women. Talk a little bit about that.

PAGÁN: Well, I think one of the things moving through eight years of this show that I've come to realize about myself, are the ways that competition have destroyed, like have destroyed my life in a lot of ways. The ways that it made me disconnected. I'm not just talking about capitalistically, and you know, the kind of the culture that we live in, but the ways in which I have been taught you need to withhold certain standards to fit into a male group.

Otherwise, you need to think in terms of this alpha, hustle, dominance, grit, discipline, warrior, all of these phrases that are sort of antagonistic. And I feel like number one, they're antagonistic. I think a lot of the language that we use for our boys and for us men, when we're looking at articles or listening to podcasts, creates this antagonistic energy.

The other thing, and probably more important thing, to start off with, is they're solitary. None of it is about connection. None of it is saying, you're having a hard time. You're feeling jealous over your partner's ex, whatever it is. Who can you talk to about this? How can you connect with your partner about it? What are the ways in which there's a community that can help you? It is all about you have to be the one that dominates this dude. You know, all of this stuff.

I do love using that voice. So while this discourse continues, I will use that voice

DINGMAN: Yeah

PAGÁN: But it's a real shame, and it puts us in these solitary, competitive and it creates a lens on the way we interact with everybody, regardless of gender.

DINGMAN: Yeah. All right, well, that is Mark Pagán. You can find Other Men Need Help wherever you get your podcasts, and also on Substack.