Phoenix is one of just a handful of American cities to employ a city archaeologist. The position has existed since 1929, and is headquartered at the S’edav Va’aki Museum.
Unless otherwise required by law, the museum serves as the designated repository for all archaeological projects that are sponsored by the city or occur on city-owned land. Some of those projects are initiated when new real estate developments get underway.
Dr. Christopher Schwartz, the current city archaeologist, joined The Show to discuss why he says that before a developer breaks ground, they call his office.
Full conversation
DR. CHRISTOPHER SCHWARTZ: So, we begin with an assessment request. So, if someone wants to do a project for developer, wants to do some work, they'll put in a request to the city archaeology office, and then me and Rebecca Hill, who works with me in the city archaeology office, will submit the results of that request to them and tell them, “OK, here's what you have in the area,” and on a project by project basis we'll come up with what we think should be the plans for mitigation.
So, if it's an area where we know that there's an archaeological site and we have our own detailed, you know, database of where the sites are and what kinds of materials are in those places, we'll submit requests that say, “OK, you know, we think we understand this area to be these kinds of features, you know, we think, say, there were, you know, a handful of pit structures in this area, right?” So, people have been living in that area. There's a canal segment that kind of is oriented right next to it. And so we'll work with them kind of from start to finish, you know, "here's the permits you need, here's the work we want you to do, and here's the reports that you'll end up reporting for us and that we'll see."
SAM DINGMAN: And so let's say, you know, this hypothetical project is happening somewhere where you know there are likely to be some cultural resources present and you make a recommendation saying, you know, “You would need to mitigate your construction plans in a way that doesn't disturb these resources.”
Is that like binding for them? Do they have to work with you on that, or what happens next? Or do they have the ability to say, “We've decided we don't care about archaeology"?
SCHWARTZ: You know, it's, you would be kind of surprised how squishy some of those regulations are, but we do have a really strong historic preservation ordinance here in the city of Phoenix. Actually one of the strongest of, you know, many of the cities that, that, that we look at or look to for comparison, and it's one of the reasons I think the city archaeology program is so strong here in Phoenix. What it ends up with is we have an incredible amount of knowledge about, you know, how people lived, how they organized themselves, what kind of activities they did on a daily basis.
DINGMAN: Well, can I ask you, this is a conversation we had on The Show somewhat recently about both Phoenix's relationship to its own history and historical preservation in general. One of the things we talked about at that time was this idea, and I'm summarizing a much longer conversation, so apologies to the other people who are part of these conversations. But, the idea generally speaking was that because “modern history” in Arizona in general and Phoenix specifically, that window is so recent. It's not that much more than 100 years ago that the state, as we know it came to exist.
There seems to be this baked in idea for a lot of people that there was so much time and so many people and so many different ways of life that preceded us. Like, our modern way of life here is such a recent phenomenon. And because of that, there is in some quarters at least, an appreciation as you were alluding to, for the idea that we need to know as much as we can about what came before.
SCHWARTZ: I would completely agree. I, you know, I'm oftentimes looking way back in these kind of deep time scales.
DINGMAN: Like, how far back are we talking?
SCHWARTZ: We're talking anywhere between, you know, 1,000 to 1,500, almost 2,000 years ago, we're thinking about. And so, to me, the significance of being able to live somewhere where you have this evidence of people that had come before is incredibly, not just interesting, but you know, things we can learn from. Also, the incredible descendant communities we have in the area, too, right, who are the direct descendants of those people, I think makes for a really, a really special place. Not just to be doing that work, but to be living and kind of interacting with on a regular basis.
DINGMAN: Could you give me an example of some discovery you've made or some piece of cultural material you came across as part of this work that did reshape your point of view?
SCHWARTZ: Sure. One of the things I think about a lot is we find fish bones at a lot of archaeological sites in the Phoenix area, and waterfowl, herons, you know, birds that you associate with water.
DINGMAN: I'm already surprised.
SCHWARTZ: Right? And you're kind of like, “Well, what is going on there?” And one of the things we don't think about, you know, the canal, we have canals, modern canals here. A lot of those canals were built on top of prehistoric canals that spanned miles and miles throughout the entire Phoenix Basin. From these canals were smaller, lateral canals and even smaller canals that navigate or that irrigated fields that were were lush and and wet and watery, right, and created these microenvironments that would have not only cooled the city, but attracted fish and birds and created just a totally different environment than we typically associate with Phoenix, Arizona.
And actually, the name Phoenix was named, right, because it was a city rising from the ashes of a society or civilization that had “long gone,” and we know now that that society and civilization had not long gone. We know their ancestors are right here living, living alongside us and at the time, of course, people were not so quick to accept that.
DINGMAN: Boy, I hadn't even considered until this very moment, Chris, I have to be honest, the lie that is sort of baked into the name of the city. So, beyond just, you know, reviewing dig sites for compliance, I know that part of what your office does, too, and what you've been doing for me in this conversation is education.
SCHWARTZ: I think archaeologists have in the past done a really good job of hiding archaeology from people with, with the very I think real concern that if people know where sites are, they'll destroy them. And it's just kind of always been my take that, you know, the more people know, the more people are interested in protecting the community around them.
DINGMAN: Well, I was probably not to the extent that you were, but something of an archaeology nerd as a kid, in the sense that my parents got me this book about the discovery of King Tut's tomb, and I was completely obsessed with this moment where they'd been out in the desert looking for this tomb. And they're digging in the sand and they found a step, and then another step, and then finally they found the door and they went in and they found all of these treasures and this window into a culture from the past. And I remember as a kid thinking, “It's so cool that they found that and that they opened it up and that now we all know about it.”
And it didn't occur to me until many years later, that the people who buried King Tut there meant for him to stay there and for him to not be disturbed. And I am reminded of that in this moment because you were talking about the impact of human societies on cultures of the past. I'm realizing that I have mostly thought of archaeology largely because of, you know, this King Tut book and the Indiana Jones movies probably, which I'm sure the bane of your existence to some degree. I have thought of archaeology as finding stuff, and what I hear you talking about is expanding your awareness, which is very different.
SCHWARTZ: Yeah, it is. And one of the things that I think most people who go into archaeology kind of get out of the habit of is like, “OK, people oftentimes ask, what's the most interesting thing you've found? What's the coolest thing you've found?” And I think most of us would say, you know, we have found some interesting things, but what's really most interesting is when you find something that's in a context in a place where you can really identify with that or understand.
You learn something incredible about what you're seeing from the past. An example would be, we oftentimes find like fingerprints in like adobe blocks and and other kinds of things that people were kind of, you know, using to form structures. And to me, it's always like, “Wow, what an incredible human experience to find 1,000-year-old fingerprints on a block of adobe that you've now just, you know, seen for the first time.” And it's things like that that really humanize the past for you and kind of put you into that experience.
