On the eve of Independence Day, America and its many definitions are top of mind. At a time when the nature of patriotism is a subject of intense debate, we wanted to have a conversation with Steve May, an Army veteran, a Republican and former state legislator, who defines himself as a patriot, but defies easy definitions himself.
May is also a gay man who marched in the Black Lives Matter protests in 2020. He’s got a lot to say about what patriotism means to him and joined The Show to discuss.
Full conversation
SAM DINGMAN: Steve, good morning.
STEVE MAY: Good morning. It’s a great day to be an American in the desert, especially after a night of rain.
DINGMAN: Amen. Well, so I understand, Steve, that your niece recently asked you what patriotism is.
MAY: So my 14-year-old niece, who lives in Kenya — and she’s lived in Kenya her whole life, she’s born there, her parents are both American — I said I was going to come here and talk about patriotism. And she said, well, what is patriotism?
DINGMAN: Yeah.
MAY: I said, that’s – let me look it up first so I don’t misdirect you here. But of course, it’s love of country. But for me, country means this, this physical space that we are in, all of the people in it, and the idea that the country is. Like, what are the values and the ideas that make America unique?
So, that country for me. And I do love America, and America has given me great opportunities and put me through some hell, too. But what a ride!
DINGMAN: Yeah. Well, so you did something that I think many people would agree is one of the core tenets of patriotism, which is that you served in the Army. Tell me, what made you decide to do that?
MAY: Well, as I say to people, I got more than I gave. I love what I learned in the Army, the people that I met and what I was able to accomplish.
You know, I joined the military. I was inspired, actually, by John McCain, to join the military. Started actually at a Navy ROTC program, spent two months underwater in a submarine and said, “I think I’d rather be in the Army.” So I switched to the army, and then I ended up as a nuclear, biological, chemical defense officer, mechanized infantry division.
And I joined the military, like a lot of people did, because it gave me a way out of a difficult family situation, and it paid for college.
DINGMAN: Yeah.
MAY: And so I was able to go to college. It paid for my college entirely. So the American taxpayers gave me a great gift. And in return, I served in the military.
DINGMAN: Yeah. But this was also at a time when, in order to be in the military, you ostensibly also had to deny a core part of who you were.
MAY: So I joined in 1989 when I was 17. I didn’t know who I was. And back then, there was a ban on gays serving in the military. Then in 1993, “don’t ask, don’t tell” was implemented. I got commissioned a month after “don’t ask, don’t tell” was implemented.
So I started at 17, and then at 21 I knew I was gay, but I thought “don’t ask, don’t tell” allowed me to kind of walk that fine line. “Well, OK, I can be gay. I just can’t tell anybody that I’m gay.” But that is not a real life. Like that’s not possible.
You can’t live and work in a military situation and lie to your peers all the time because they’ll say, “What did you do last weekend?” And oh, I can’t talk. I have to separate my friend groups. I have to hide who I’m hanging out with. Like it isn’t possible to live that lie.
DINGMAN: Yeah. So how do you navigate that with the McCain-inspired feelings that prompted you to want to be a part of the military in the first place?
MAY: Well, for me, I felt that — remember the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy was congressionally mandated. You know, Clinton negotiated, congressionally mandated. It was not innate to military fact that gay people couldn’t serve. Gay people have always been in the military.
So I believed, look, that law is wrong. That law is wrong. It’s not really — and I always believed that law was fundamentally in conflict with what it means to be an American and what we’re trying to do in this country, like equal opportunity, fairness and justice for all. That law was in conflict with it.
I was able to say, “That law is wrong. I’m right. I can serve.” So in my mind, I allowed myself to serve.
But of course, I did not understand. I mean, the Army actually had investigators searching for gay people.They would go to gay bars and go to gay places. They would search for gay people in the military so they could harass them and kick them out. That wasn’t envisioned when that policy was first imagined, but that’s what happened. They were called witch hunts. We called them witch hunts. So I left the military as soon as I was allowed to.
And then I got called because I didn’t want to go through a prosecution process, which is what eventually happened. I got out, then they — I went, I became an openly gay Republican elected official, one of the first in the country and then nationally known. And then the Army called me back in and then started the process of prosecuting me, kicking me out, which is exactly what I had tried to avoid.
DINGMAN: Kicking you out for saying that you were gay?
MAY: For saying that I’m gay.
DINGMAN: Even though you had already served?
MAY: Even though I had already served. And I already said it, and then they called me back in afterwards. So it was kind of this great case. And I was, at the time, a state legislator and nationally known. And so I had kind of a voice that most people serving in the military did not have.
DINGMAN: Yeah.
MAY: And so when they came after me, I felt like they gave me the option to resign and quietly walk away. And I said, “Hell no! You’re wrong. This law is wrong, and I’m going to show the American public that this is wrong. And so I’m going to make you prosecute me. I’m going to make you investigate me. I’m going to make you prove the evidence. Prove to the world that I am gay and that I said that I’m gay.”
And they did all that. And I went to trial for two days. The whole process was miserable. But at the end of this two-day period, they determined — like, I am now a convicted homosexual. Just think about that! From September 2000, 25 years ago, the American government made me a convicted homosexual. Right?
DINGMAN: Yeah.
MAY: But I was able to tell this story to the American public. I forced the Army to tell their dirt. It wasn’t the Army. It’s Congress, right? The Army loved me, right? The institution prosecuted me because Congress told them they had to. But every single person I worked with in the Army loved me.
DINGMAN: Yeah.
MAY: And I loved them. So I forced this ugly story to be told. And the American public then listened and said, “This doesn’t make any sense. This is wrong. Why are we going after that kid? That kid just wants to serve! He’s doing a good job!”
DINGMAN: So, Steve, we just have like 30 seconds left. What is your message to somebody who might be listening to this, who has a similar story where they feel like they believe in America but America is telling them a story that they don’t belong?
MAY: It’s not true. Know that it’s not true. Share your story. Talk to your fellow American. The person who disagrees with you. The person who thinks you don’t belong. Talk to them.
Throughout the history of this country, when we engage other Americans, they change their opinions. They listen. If we listen, they listen.
And we have won. We’ve won on issues of race, of gender, on LGBT issues. When we talk, when we engage, we win.
