After an exhaustive search and a scathing Department of Justice report, the Phoenix Police Department has a new chief: Matt Giordano.
Giordano currently heads up the Arizona Peace Officer Standards and Training Board, or AZPOST. But, he started his long career at the Phoenix Police Department, retired as a commander. He then went on to serve as Executive Chief of Enforcement at the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office, where he served under former Sheriff Paul Penzone.
Giordano takes the helm at Phoenix PD after a year of turmoil within the department. Last summer, the Department of Justice released a report finding a pattern of civil rights abuses and discrimination by Phoenix police officers. But, under the Trump administration, the DOJ rescinded its findings and closed its investigation with no accountability measures forced upon the department. City leaders say they are committed to reform regardless.
It’s a situation that Penzone can relate to. He took over the sheriff’s office after the long and controversial reign of Joe Arpaio, but that department was — and still is — under a court order because of civil rights violations there. He told me, he thinks Giordano is in a good position to move the department forward.
Full conversation
PAUL PENZONE: It’s a unique time for the Phoenix Police Department, to kind of redefine themselves. Every agency goes through challenges, ups and downs. And I reflect back on my career there and was very proud of that time and in that era. And I think that in the current landscape, things have become a little bit — the challenges have evolved.
But in order for them to move forward in a healthy way, I do think it was wise to go to someone who’s very familiar, not only with the agency but with the community.
LAUREN GILGER: So Giordano, I know, worked for you for some time when you were sheriff of the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office. Tell us about his experience. What experience do you think he can bring to the job based on his time with you and, as you mentioned, his long time in local law enforcement?
PENZONE: Sure. And I had familiarity with Matt prior to that. We didn’t work directly together while I was at Phoenix PD, but we definitely knew each other. And he came over to the sheriff’s office to oversee all of the enforcement operations. So it was a big lift, high responsibility position, especially when, you know, in my case, a new sheriff.
We hadn’t seen one in a quarter of a century. And then you bring in some folks who you believe are best suited to do two things. One is to ensure that those operations are fluid and efficient and effective and ethical. But also you have to have a personality to mesh, to where you can get along with people, because those in the agency sometimes can feel threatened when you bring what they would deem an outsider in.
And Matt has that disposition that he gets along with people really well. He, you know, he has a very — if you look at his resume and his experience, it’s broad. It’s deep. It’s vast. So he was a good fit for us.
So his role there was, it was big. It had a lot of lift to it, and it had its challenges. And most of the time we agreed on things. Sometimes we did disagree, but it was always a very collegial interaction.
GILGER: So as you’re kind of referencing there, he is going into a department that has faced some controversy of late. It recently got hit with a scathing Department of Justice report: findings of discrimination, excessive use of force, lack of accountability, lots of issues.
You have been in a similar position, where you’ve taken over a law enforcement agency here that was kind of mired in controversy as you took over MCSO following Joe Arpaio. What kind of challenges is he facing going into that kind of situation?
PENZONE: Well, there are similarities, but there’s also some differences. And I’ll speak to those first, and then I’ll get into the details. But for Matt, the benefit is he is familiar with the agency. That’s where he spent most of his time before going to the sheriff’s office. So it’s kind of like going home. You have relationships, you have a standing, and you’re not really starting from scratch.
Whereas when I took over the sheriff’s office, I was a stranger in a strange land. So not only to have the dynamics of federal court oversight and the challenges, but I had to give the organization opportunity to learn about and get to know me, and vice versa.
So I think for Matt, what’s going to be really challenging is contrary of what I just spoke of. When you don’t have those relationships, you try to avoid subjectivity. You try to avoid emotion. You try to keep relationships out of your decisions. Because ultimately, when you’re the head of the office, you’re the gatekeeper.
So as you look at the issues of concern that the Phoenix Police Department has faced, first you have to separate fact from fiction. Some of the things that the Department of Justice alleged may have been very accurate and in justified allegations, others maybe not so much.
Now you’re going to be embedded in there 24/7 with the men and women, and you owe it to them to do a fair and thoughtful assessment not only of what occurred at that time, but where they are now. So let’s not forget, they had an interim chief who made a lot of changes, took a lot of steps to negate maybe the problems that they had to improve on certain things. So they’re not the same agency today than they were a year ago, two years ago, three years ago.
So you have to do a fair assessment and you have to ask yourself, are you willing to do what’s difficult to ensure that in a year or two years from now, going forward, this community looks at that agency and sees it through a lens where they have nothing less than pride and gratitude for the sacrifices of those in uniform that are doing the job because they’re doing it the right way to the highest standard?
GILGER: So let me ask you a forward-looking question. The DOJ report was essentially pulled by the Trump administration. There will be no consent decree, no court oversight, no federal government oversight here. City leaders, as you said, have promised continued action. We saw some of that from the interim chief. They’re promising accountability and change.
Do you think choosing someone as chief with Giordano’s background will kind of help the city move in that direction?
PENZONE: You know, I’ll speak as a citizen. I hope so. You know what I mean? It’s interesting because coming into this interview, I thought a lot about it. And I remember that as I reflect on my own experiences. When I was elected sheriff, there were critics. “Is this guy qualified? Does he have the experience? How can he do what we need to do?” There were others who believed strongly in me.
But I look at it through this lens. It’s so hard to prognosticate how someone will do when they hold the ultimate authority and responsibility in an agency. Now, with that being said, I’d like to think that Matt has those attributes. You check those boxes, and you would expect that he is experienced and primed for success, which means it’s in the best interest of the community and the agency. Because we always have to think about the men and women who are sacrificing, ensure that they’re at the front of our thoughts also as we prepare for this.
But I don’t think anyone truly understands the weight, I’ll say, of the office, because I hold the office, but of that responsibility, until suddenly you put those stars on your collar, and you are the person whose name is on the front page or the one who is facing any and all criticism. You’re the one who is standing in front of audiences who oppose your position for their own beliefs, and you have to stand your ground and do what you know to be true to the authority of the office.
GILGER: Let me ask you: Giordano has spent the last several years at (Arizona Peace Officer Standards and Training Board), which creates the standards and training for officers across the state. But they’re also the organization that deals with disciplinary actions against officers.
How might that kind of play into his role? I imagine it’s a tough balance to strike, like earning officers’ trust and maintaining the public trust when it comes to accountability when officers go wrong.
PENZONE: It will reveal you. You know, I’m not speaking solely of Matt. The same applied to me and anyone who has been a position. I think the benefit is AZPOST is so heavily rooted in training, as well as the oversight, that it really puts you in a position to understand the needs to develop, to educate and to prepare those who are putting the badge and a gun on. So I think there’s an inherent benefit to that.
But at the end of the day, more often than not, you are addressing failures. Your job at the head is to say, “Where did we make a mistake or a failure? And how do we correct it?” It might be training, it might be some form of low-end discipline. It could be a suspension. It could be a separation.
You have to make those decisions absent of any relational element, and you have to treat everyone equally. And you have to make hard decisions that kind of fall in this space, that if you’re taking someone’s livelihood, and it was a lifetime passion for them, you had better make sure it’s the right decision to the best of your ability.
And if you steer into a direction where you think because you know them personally and that really wasn’t, you know, that’s not their characteristic, and they made a mistake. All those things are nice on the heart, but everyone looks on to you to treat each member of the organization with fairness, objectivity and consistency. No one should be above the rules, and no one should be outside the law.
So you have to put yourself on an island. And that’s not easy to do. But if you want to be in charge of an organization, you shouldn’t worry about being liked, although you should be likable. You shouldn’t worry about being respected, although you should always lead with respect. You should just worry about that you make your decisions in that moment with all the information you have available to the best interest of the people you serve and those who have empowered you to serve on their behalf.
