Did ASU try to influence Arizona PBS's choice to grant Katie Hobbs a solo interview in 2022?

It feels like ancient Arizona political history at this point, but back in 2022, then gubernatorial candidate Katie Hobbs refused to debate her then-opponent, Kari Lake.

Not long afterwards, Hobbs announced that Arizona PBS would host her for a solo interview. Lake cried foul, and a weekslong controversy erupted.

Now, nearly three years later, a new report in the Arizona Republic reveals some behind-the-scenes deliberations that led up to Hobbs’ announcement of her interview, raising questions about how and why the interview was scheduled.

Reporter Stacey Barchenger wrote the piece containing these revelations.

Full conversation

SAM DINGMAN: Stacey, good morning.

STACEY BARCHENGER: Good morning.

DINGMAN: So, Stacey, your piece contains emails between ASU President Michael Crow and his staff. Why were these emails of interest to you?

BARCHENGER: Well, you mentioned, the ancient political history that was the 2022 gubernatorial debate — this was something that, you know, I covered that race and this situation whether Katie Hobbs would debate Kari Lake, this was a weekslong storyline that we were covering. And then it kind of culminated in this explosive day of, now Gov. Hobbs going on national TV and saying she was getting an interview, even though nobody thought she would be getting that. And then, you know, Clean Elections pulled out, which ended this debate partnership. Kari Lake had a press conference at the Cronkite School to blast ASU.

And throughout all of this, I just had the question of, how was this decision made? There was such great impact from the decision. I wanted to know how it was made, so I turned to Arizona public records law and asked the university for communications between President Michael Crow and some of his top aides that we had, you know, suspected were involved in leading the station. And then also could be part of this decision.

DINGMAN: Yes, and it took what, about two years for those emails to finally be provided to you, right?

BARCHENGER: Mhm. Yeah, 743 days precisely.

DINGMAN: OK, well, there is, there are a number of eyebrow-raising quotes in these emails, but one in particular that is heavily featured in the piece, this is from Michael Crowe, and it reads, ... “Whatever the format, there remains the fact that it is our venue and brand, we need structure and format, and people who believe in elections as participants.” Why did that line stand out to you?

BARCHENGER: I mean, I think we set out to find out how this decision was made and why. And so I think this is, you know, the president of Arizona's largest university making clear his feelings on the matter. And, you know, there was conversation after this, Mi-Ai Parrish, who is a former Republic publisher who now works at ASU's Media Enterprise, you know, she responded in this conversation to Crowe, like, what outcome are you seeking? You know, seeking a direction from him.

So, I think this really makes clear how President Crow was viewing this situation, which I will note was a departure from precedent. You know, earlier in 2022, Arizona PBS had, you know, done a one-on-one interview with Marco Lopez, who was challenging Secretary of State Hobbs at the time for the Democratic nomination for governor. And Hobbs didn't get an interview in that circumstance. Similarly, something happened in 2018, you know, Gov. Ducey wouldn't debate Ken Bennett in the primary, and Ken Bennett got an interview and Gov. Ducey didn't.

DINGMAN: Right. Well, one of the other significant revelations in these emails is that when it comes to the interview that Hobbs eventually did do on PBS, the original invitation as revealed in these emails came from “Arizona State University and PBS.” But at the time when the Republic — back in 2022 — when the Republic reached out to ask about Hobbs' interview, they got a response saying that the invitation had come exclusively from PBS, right?

BARCHENGER: Yeah, I think it's interesting how this timeline sort of unfolded. You know, as Katie Hobbs was going back and forth about whether she would do this debate. You have this behind-the-scenes private conversation happening at the top of the higher ed hierarchy at ASU. And then, you know, later, the dean of the Cronkite School is informed about what it is. And then later, you have the journalists at Arizona PBS who do the invite and, you know, when they made that invite, made clear that it was Arizona State University and Arizona PBS.

Although there's also, you know, there was another situation where one of our columnists here at the Republic reached out for information. And the emails I got showed the leaders, you know, crafting a response that kind of put the invite on just Arizona PBS.

DINGMAN: Right, kind of seemed to have perhaps edited out ASU's involvement in the decision. And this kind of gets to the heart of the piece in many ways, because If I'm tracking all this correctly, Arizona PBS did offer Kari Lake a solo interview at the time, which Lake declined. And some people might hear that and think, "OK, well, so you know, what's the big deal?" But the concern here is that it wasn't just PBS making these decisions independently, it would seem, right?

BARCHENGER: Yeah, and you're right. I mean, Lake confirmed at the time that she was also offered an interview. She, of course, declined to appear for that or anything else on Arizona PBS during that election cycle. But it, you know, it's just, it's so interesting the kind of the fallout from this. And I'm really glad that we were finally able to get the story, kind of, across the finish line, you know, after so long.

DINGMAN: Yes, yes, 742 days or whatever it was, as you were saying. Just about 30 seconds left here, Stacey. You reached out to ASU and Gov. Hobbs for a comment on all this. What did they tell you?

BARCHENGER: You know, ASU has kind of explained themselves in, you know, that their priority was the integrity of the election process. You know, they wanted to provide an equal opportunity for all candidates in accordance with their broadcast license. Of course, that gets into a very complicated area of First Amendment law and regulation of broadcasters. And, you know, I tried to ask Gov. Hobbs if, you know, looking forward, she would debate in 2026, and she said it was too early to make that call.