This fallen-away Catholic made peace with her son's calling to priesthood through writing

Well, it’s Thanksgiving week here on The Show and that means a lot of us are getting ready to spend some quality time with our families. And so now, The Show host Lauren Gilger would like to introduce you to some of her family.

I’m joined in studio now by my mother, Kristin Grady Gilger, and my big brother, Father Patrick Gilger.

Two things here: One, you heard right. I referred to my brother there as “Father.” He’s a priest — a Jesuit priest. That’s what I usually tell folks is the “social justice-y, education focused” Catholics. Pope Francis was, once-upon-a-time, a Jesuit.

And two: Yes, it’s weird for me to have my family in studio with me, but they are here for good reason. My Mom has just come out with a book about my brother — and his unlikely journey to become a priest. It’s called "My Son, The Priest: A Mother’s Crisis of Faith."

They’ll be at Changing Hands Bookstore in Phoenix on Tuesday night to talk more about it.

And, as I’m sure he’s about to tell you, it’s really more a book about her than a book about him. But, we’ll get to all of that soon enough.

Patrick is also a professor, as Jesuits often are. He teaches sociology at Loyola University of Chicago and is a sought-after spiritual director. He got his PhD in sociology at the New School in New York — a liberal enclave where he was most certainly the only celibate Catholic, let alone the only priest.

My mother, Kristin, spent her career as a journalist, moving us around the country as she worked her way up in newsrooms. We moved here when I was in middle school because she took a job as managing editor of The Arizona Republic.

She retired last year after 15 years at the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication at Arizona State University. And, now she has time to do things like take care of my kids and write this book.

Full conversation

LAUREN GILGER: Mom, Patrick, thanks for being here.

KRISTIN GRADY GILGER: It's nice to be here.

PATRICK GILGER: I'm very happy to be here with you.

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KJZZ

LAUREN: OK, so let's talk about this book. It's about our family, it's about religion and faith, and much more. But, Mom, you basically, you wrote this book because you did not understand this decision that Patrick made to become a priest, and you wanted to understand it. You're a true journalist in this way. You wanted to get an in on it in this way.

So let's start with a little bit about us, about the family, about why it was unlikely there, as I referred to it, that Patrick became a priest. I mean, aren't mothers supposed to be excited when ... their son become priests, right? This is a good thing?

KRISTIN: Yeah, I think so. But I think I'm a fairly unlikely mother of a priest. You know, just being a journalist, a fallen-away Catholic, a skeptic, a cynic, someone who likes to count things and have them explained.

And I was raised Catholic and baptized my kids Catholic, but eventually left the church largely because I just didn't agree with a lot of things that were going on and stands on, on some social issues. Feminism was a big part of it. And so we raised you Episcopalian. We didn't even raise you Catholic. So how did this happen?

LAUREN: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So, yes, talk more about that. There's this story we always tell in our family about this kind of dramatic moment when you decided to leave the Catholic Church when we were kids. Probably the second time you left the church, but start there for us. Tell us that story.

KRISTIN: Yeah, second time, actually. So, yeah, so this was shortly after Patrick ... had received his first communion, and he was insistent we had to go to church on Sunday. So we go to church one Sunday, and it was the day where the priest is asking you to pledge money for the church.

And they hand out these little cards ... and the priest says, "Now, I only want the men in the family to fill out these cards because the men are responsible for the finances."

And I'm sitting there and I'm just outraged. Completely outraged, right? And so I took a pen, and in every inch of space on that card, I wrote exactly what I thought of what he had said, and kind of pulled Patrick out of the church with me. He had no idea what was going on.

And I handed the card to the priest and I said, "And I'm not coming back!"

And that was the last time that I went back for a long time.

LAUREN: A very long time. Let's talk about the other time you left the church, which was when you were younger. You write a lot about your family — this big Irish Catholic family — in the book, about, you know, being one of eight kids and not having enough money and the impact of alcoholism on your family.

How did that impact your view of Catholicism? Like, you left the church the first time kind of with all of this tied up together.

KRISTIN: Yeah, I mean, as I said, I was raised Catholic. I have good experiences with the Catholic Church. You know, I remember, you know, the pastor and the assistant pastor of our local parish coming over on Friday nights and playing cards and drinking a lot of Jim Beam with my parents, you know, and being very active in the church on the Catholic Youth Organization, playing softball, you know, a lot of good memories of the church.

But as I, you know, got ... into middle school and high school, the drinking began to overwhelm my family. And both my parents were alcoholics.

And it got so bad that I felt like I had to leave. And so the minute I graduated from high school, I moved out. And to me, Catholicism was so tied up with my family that kind of leaving my family meant leaving the Catholic Church as well. It all seemed entwined to me; part of the same thing.

So letting go of one meant letting go of the other.

LAUREN: Yeah.

So let's fast forward to Patrick being a 17-year-old freshman in college and you, sort of, insisting on him going to Creighton University. Sort of in a way you didn't understand at the time. This was kind of a Catholic Jesuit university in Omaha, where you're from, near your family.

And I want to turn to you here, Patrick, because you went to Creighton to become a doctor. You had always said you wanted to be a doctor. I remember this.

You were in love with your girlfriend from high school at the time — madly — and you end up, four years later, like, graduating as a 21-year-old who wants to become a priest and be celibate the rest of your life. Like, how did this happen?

PATRICK: You know, I think I've spent most of my life trying to answer that question: how did this happen? And I still don't have a great answer to it.

But lots of things happened to us in college. For me, I think the short version is that I got to Creighton and I had never met people, human beings, who kind of combined what the Jesuits combined for me. This intellectual rigor and interest in the world without fear, with a willingness to sacrifice themselves for people who were on the margins, and a normalcy — like, these are people who you could, like, have a beer and talk about the NBA with, and then at the same time ... bring up Jesus.

And maybe I can say it this way: like, for a long time in my life, hearing the word "Jesus," I just kind of felt, OK, that's a little weird, you know, like I just didn't ring right. And meeting Jesuits was the first time I had met people who could say the name "Jesus," and it didn't weird me out. And I was like, wow, like, what's going on here?

And then combining that with this philosophical rigor and etc., as I said, there was something that just captured my heart.

But even saying all those things — which are true — I don't know the answer to that question.

LAUREN: There's no good answer to that question.

KRISTIN: I remember very well when you called home and said, "I'm changing my major from pre-med to philosophy."

And I said, "Philosophy? What are you going to do with a degree in philosophy?"

Amber Victoria Singer

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KJZZ

LAUREN: That's a very legitimate question. But you had, Mom, really pushed him to go to Creighton.

And there's this scene in the book where I remember this, like, I was probably in high school, and Patrick comes home with the Jesuit recruiter from Creighton, and they come to the house, they have dinner, and he asks you and dad at some point, like, if you were surprised that Patrick was considering entering the priesthood.

And you both answered right away, but had different answers.

KRISTIN: Right. I remember this well. So he asked, you know, "Does your son's interest in becoming a Jesuit priest surprise you?"

And my husband said, "yes," and I said, "no," at the exact same moment. And we kind of just looked at each other.

I don't know where the "no" came from, but I think that somewhere inside me, I don't know, I kind of just — it didn't surprise me. Like, I saw this coming in many ways. And when I look back, you know, on things that had happened in his life and our lives, it made sense to me in retrospect, in a way that it didn't when it was happening.

LAUREN: Yeah. Yeah. As so many things often do.

There was one moment, and we only have maybe 30 seconds left here before we're gonna go to a quick break, but one moment at his baptism, right, that came up here.

KRISTIN: Yeah. So when he was baptized, we were at my sister's parish church, and it was a cloudy day, no hint of sun. And just as the priest pours the water over his head, you know, this shaft of light shines down right on the baby, you know, and we all went, "ooh."

And I remember the priest said, "God has something very special in mind for this child."

And at the time, we sort of shrugged it off, like, "Oh, nice. You know, nice touch, a ray of sun."

But looking back, that seems significant to me.

LAUREN: Yeah. Yeah. Coming from a skeptical person.

OK, so, Patrick, let's turn to you now and talk about the Jesuits, a little bit about what drew you to them. Mom writes about this in the book, but, I mean, you didn't just want to become a priest. You wanted to become a Jesuit in particular.

What was it about them in particular that you were drawn to? And not just the fact that, apparently, the Jedis were based on them.

PATRICK: Whether that's true or not true, I'm not sure I can confirm. But as our grandfather used to say, sometimes the story is better than the truth.

You know, I wish I knew perfectly what it was that the Jesuits did for me, but I remember, like, walking into a professor's office, a Jesuit professor's office at Creighton University where I went to undergraduate, and all around the walls were all of these books, like, you know, secular books like Nietzsche, and Karl Marx and all these things.

And then there were these crosses on the walls, and then there was this, like, normal guy sitting across from me. He was like, "How's your life? How's the dorm going? Like, what's your family like?"

And having somebody who could kind of answer and ask all of those different kinds of questions and share those kinds of things — there was something that was really magnetic about me.

I had never really, like, you know, I'm an extremist and, like, I want everything. I want everything. And so the idea that there were these people who could be relatively normal, immersed in the world, interested in everyday life, and give everything for something that was worth our lives, worth my life, that combination just absolutely captivated me.

And I'm still trying to, you know, live that out 20-something years later.

LAUREN: 20-something years later.

Mom, you were not surprised that the Jesuits in particular attracted him, right? This kind of elite group in this way?

KRISTIN: Yeah, yeah, I guess I thought that, well, if he has to become a Catholic priest, this is probably the best option. So, I mean, for the book, I did a lot of research on the Jesuits because frankly, I didn't know anything about them. I mean, I knew Creighton was a Jesuit university, but I really didn't know anything about the Jesuits.

So I researched a lot ... I write a chapter about the history of the Jesuits, and they're fascinating, and I think that their commitment to intellectual rigor, as Patrick put it, their spiritualism, their connection and their involvement in the real world. It can be hard to spot a Jesuit because they're often not wearing the collar, right?

LAUREN: I made him wear it today. Yep.

KRISTIN: I mean, they live in the real world. And then their commitment to social justice — I mean, listening to Pope Leo and his stance on immigration and how immigrants are being treated, these things resonate strongly with me. So ... those are all positives.

LAUREN: The Jesuits have been controversial too, right, Patrick? Like, in terms of modern-day issues like LGBTQ+ Catholics, but also, you know, historically, liberation theology is kind of rooted in the Jesuits.

PATRICK: Yeah. I mean, those things emerge from our effort to think with the church in the midst of real people's lives. So, for example, with liberation theology, all that meant was spending real time with people who are living in rural situations in Latin America or in the barrios, or people's actual crises that they're facing, and then trying to think about what the meaning of the Incarnation or the Trinity might be from there.

And what it means is, what God wants for human beings is the fullness of life, freedom, hope, joy, relationships, the same things that we all want. And then the question becomes, how do we build a society that can help these kinds of things be real, help what God wants, actually happen?

LAUREN: Yeah. I always tell people, to try to explain you easily and quickly, that you've been arrested many times at many protests.

PATRICK: Yes. I can't deny that.

LAUREN: OK, so we have to talk about these vows that you take, though, as a priest. I think most people will be aware of that, right, that you commit yourself when you become a priest to three things: poverty, chastity and obedience.

Patrick, what do these things mean?

PATRICK: Yeah, you know, I think when most people think about those three words, mostly what they hear is, like, a giant red stop sign, like, a negative, you know, "don't do these things." And that's true.

There are things that you give up there. So for me, poverty means I don't actually own anything. The Society of Jesus, the Jesuits, give me everything I have.

KRISTIN: And you can't inherit anything from us.

PATRICK: That's right.

And with regard to obedience, I did not choose to get a PhD. I was sent, I was missioned to do this. And I didn't choose where I was going to work. I had to apply to Loyola University in Chicago like everybody else does. But I was sent there to apply there.

And with regard to chastity, like, no, I have to say no to, you know, sexual relationships and marriage commitments and to families, all that kind of thing that I would have loved to have.

But the "no" is really just an avenue for another "yes." Like, I didn't really see those things as, like, a big ban on my life. Like, they were a way that I could get the thing that I wanted. Like, my heart was set alive with this idea of giving my life away this way.

And so if I had to say no to X, Y, Z — which are important things, good things, especially families and love and freedom, those are good things — but if I had to say no to some of that to do this thing that I was falling in love with, fine.

LAUREN: This, however, was not as easy or as obvious as a thing for your mother, right? I think one of the hardest parts for you, and you really write about this a lot in the book, is that you were worried that Patrick will never get married, he'll never have kids, he'll die alone in, like, a Jesuit priest retirement home with no grandchildren to visit him.

I mean, are you still worried about that?

KRISTIN: Well, not as much as I used to be. And that's part of the reason I wrote the book, was to sort of work through, you know, these concerns and these issues. But, you know, I mean, a big concern for me was grandkids. I've always made it very clear that I expected lots of grandchildren from my three children.

LAUREN: You're welcome.

KRISTIN: But you've stepped up, you and your sister, between you, I have five grandchildren now, which pretty much lets Patrick off the hook, although more would always be welcome.

And I did worry about loneliness. You know, I thought, you know, what happens when you, you know, when you age and you have no family — immediate family — around you, although he'll always have, you know, his sisters.

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LAUREN: Yeah.

KRISTIN: And I actually talked to a Jesuit priest at Brophy, at St. Francis, about this, and he laughed. You know ... he said a couple of things that I think were significant. One, that everybody's lonely sometimes. You know, getting married and having children actually is not an antidote to loneliness.

And that he really isn't lonely surrounded by a, really, very large family. I think I realized that when Patrick was ordained. I mean, hundreds of people showed up. You know, they came from the Pine Ridge reservation, they came from New York, they came from all over the country. All these people who I didn't know, who all feel like he has a very special place in their lives.

So I don't worry about that as much anymore.

LAUREN: But the concern, like the central thing there is that you want your kids to be happy, right? And you were worried this would not fundamentally make him happy.

But I remember you two having this argument once, and Patrick basically saying, like —

PATRICK: We never argue, come on.

KRISTIN: Only occasionally.

LAUREN: I think this was over cards ... and you said, basically, it's not about being happy.

PATRICK: Yeah, no, I think happiness is, of course, deeply important in life, but it's not as important as joy or fulfillment or purpose.

Basically what I think — like, I'm a Catholic. What is the meaning of life? The meaning of life for me is self-sacrificial love. And we have all kinds of choices with regard to how we're going to live out a version of self-sacrificial love in our lives.

We all do it in different ways. Mom, you and dad did that by family, but so do you, Lauren, in your own ways. You guys all live out this image of self-sacrificial love.

So I had a choice as to how I was gonna live it out, but not whether I was.

I just had to give my life away in one way or another. And happiness comes after that gift of self-sacrifice, not just beforehand. It doesn't come by avoiding it. It comes by going through it.

LAUREN: Yeah. OK, so last minute here, Mom, and I wanna go back to the point we made at the beginning, which is why you wrote this book, right? To understand this life that your son chose that you could just not understand at all.

So the book is out. You've done it, you've written it. Do you think you understand it now?

KRISTIN: I think so. I mean, this has been a journey for me as well, a spiritual journey for me, you know, to think back on my own relationship with God and with the Catholic Church. And, you know, I am not, like, a believer in everything, but I'm a Catholic. And, you know, I go to church and I try to pray and to live my life in a way that, I don't know, I guess that my children can be proud of, that I can be proud of.

PATRICK: We're very proud.

KRISTIN: So I think the book was a way for us to have conversations, lots of conversations, and to understand each other and to, sort of, bridge that gap between my very secular world and his religious world. And I think it's done that.

LAUREN: I think it's done that.