Sinema praises MAHA movement for supporting research into PTSD therapy ibogaine

Arizona’s current budget allocates $5 million for research into the potential medical benefits of ibogaine, a psychedelic derived from an African root. Advocates, like former U.S. Sen. Kyrsten Sinema, say it could have potential for treating conditions including PTSD.

Sinema, in fact, testified in favor of the measure at the Legislature that included the research money.

Erin Schumaker, a deputy health care editor at Politico, spoke with Sinema at a conference hosted by the group Americans for Ibogaine.

She joined The Show to talk more about her piece, which is headlined “Kyrsten Sinema is Ready for her MAHA Turn.”

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Full conversation

MARK BRODIE: Erin, when you spoke with Sinema, what did she say that surprised you?

ERIN SCHUMAKER: I was surprised that [former] Sen. Sinema made the leap to MAHA. I know that she is a Democrat turned independent and is often cut against the grain, but that was a surprising thing for me to hear. I didn't think the conversation would go there.

I expected to talk about Secretary [Robert F.] Kennedy, and I've made some connections between psychedelics and MAHA and whether that might be part of the larger agenda there, but I didn't think that she would make that leap herself.

BRODIE: Does it seem as though psychedelics is sort of her main connection to MAHA? Because, and I asked because it seems as though based on your conversation, it seems like there are other aspects of the movement that she is very much on board with.

SCHUMAKER: She spoke positively about some of the other actions that MAHA has taken about taking additives out of food or encouraging companies to do so.

But it does seem like psychedelics are the strongest thread there. That's what she said she's talking to Secretary Kennedy about. That's where I think that she sees the biggest opportunity with the Trump administration to make inroads on this particular issue.

She expressed positive feelings about some of the other food related MAHA actions, but it does seem like psychedelics is the strongest thread.

BRODIE: And do we have a sense of what her goal is with psychedelics? Like, what is she trying to achieve?

SCHUMAKER: She's working with Americans for Ibogaine, and that group is seeking ultimately FDA approval of ibogaine as a mental health treatment at some point down the line.

Now, to do that, they would need clinical trials to be approved by the FDA. This is sort of a long road, but their goal is to get states to work together and either fund or make agreements to do research on the drug ibogaine and then eventually move it along through clinical trials to get FDA approval. That's their goal.

BRODIE: OK. And it seems as though she was at least somewhat successful in Arizona getting some money in the last day budget for some research.

Does it seem as though that that's sort of the first step where advocates like Sinema are focusing right now?

SCHUMAKER: Yeah, I think that is one of the first steps. In Arizona, she was successful at lobbying Democratic Gov. Katie Hobbs to include $5 million in ibogaine research in the state's budget.

And that was on the heels of something similar and even bigger happening in Texas, where $50 million was secured largely by governor, former Gov. Rick Perry of Texas and Bryan Hubbard, who are both co-founders of Americans for Ibogan. And that's the conference at which she was speaking when I interviewed her.

BRODIE: Right. Does it seem as though there are any parallels between what folks like Sinema and others are trying to do with ibogaine and what others have been doing with psilocybin research?

Trying to, it sounds like, some of the benefits for military veterans and others might be sort of similar to between psilocybin, you know, magic mushrooms and ibogaine.

SCHUMAKER: I see some parallels there. And I see even more parallels to what happened with MDMA, also known as ecstasy.

Last year, there was that drug got quite far along in the FDA pipeline and it was up for approval. And ultimately the FDA turned down the application that Lykos Therapeutics put forward last summer. And that sort of put a chill on the whole psychedelics industry for quite some time, probably until Donald Trump took office.

Ibogaine is far, far behind where MDMA is. It's not as far along in clinical trials, but I do think that was sort of. Yeah, that was the front runner sort of in this, you know, race to to bring a psychedelic medicine, you know, across that FDA finish line.

BRODIE: Yeah, well, and one of the things that struck me as interesting based on your conversation with Sinema, was the way that she described the Trump administration, the second Trump administration, in terms of being disruptors and this being a really good opportunity for folks who are looking to do things like get ibogaine FDA approval or maybe even MDMA FDA approval.

Can you talk a little bit about why she think now is the moment for this kind of thing?

SCHUMAKER: Sure. So the way that [former] Sen. Sinema described it, she, you know, called the Trump administration this sort of magical time in which there's a chance to get things done on psychedelic research. I think she sees it that way in part because the Trump administration is made up of so many disruptors. He's put disruptors into many different positions of power, but especially in.

In the Health Department, you've got Secretary Kennedy, who's you know, disrupt, shifting the food system and the vaccine system and really making some big changes there. You've got Marty Makary at the FDA and Jay Bhattacharya at NIH, like a whole Dr. Oz at CMS, a whole sort of cohort of disruptors.

And she pointed out two secretaries that have been more or less outspoken about psychedelics, that being Secretary Kennedy and Doug Collins, the VA secretary who has gone on podcast to speak about psychedelics.

You know, talked with Trump at cabinet meetings about the veteran suicide epidemic. And, and yeah, those, those, those two together. I think she sees some, some promise there for making inroads on this issue.

BRODIE: So I feel like I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about your conversation with Sinema about her trying ibogaine. This came up. She apparently went to Mexico to try it at some point.

SCHUMAKER: She did, yeah. This spring she went to Mexico to a clinic there to try it. And they do. She's not the first person in Congress to do so. Rep.Morgan Luttrell has been open about doing a similar treatment, ibogaine treatment in Mexico.

And often what people who go to these clinics will do is they will go there and under the supervision of health care providers, will be administered ibogaine, and they'll be under supervision from these health care professionals, including some heart monitoring.

There's some heart risks from taking ibogaine. And then they'll be connected after their treatment with some kind of aftercare monitoring and almost like therapy from some of these health care providers.

BRODIE: Well, and it sounds like, based on what she told you, she's not necessarily looking to do it again, but sounds like she had a fairly positive experience doing this.

SCHUMAKER: Yeah, there are two interesting parts there, I thought.

One is that as far as I can tell, and based on my conversation with [former] Sen. Sinema, she doesn't seem to be, she didn't describe having any of these mental health conditions like depression or PTSD. She told me that her grandmother had experienced dementia and that she was essentially trying to shore up her brain against dementia.

Whether or not that's something that this drug can do, who could say? But she said it made her feel sharper, clearer. She described her brain to me as feeling snappy. So she said the experience was worth it.

I asked her if she would try it again. She said she sort of went back and forth and said she wouldn't like it, but she probably would try it again.