SAM DINGMAN: A while back, I was on Reddit, scrolling through the Phoenix discussion board. Now, if you're not familiar with Reddit, it's a website where people subscribe to pages dedicated to subjects they're interested in. Once you're subscribed, you can post links relevant to that subject. Other people can comment on those links.
And on this Phoenix page, one of the most heavily discussed posts in recent memory was titled: Coffee shop recommendations.
A user named ThinYak2597 had posted a spreadsheet he'd been keeping. It was a list of all the Valley coffee shops he had visited, which had the names of the shops and then a quality score on a scale from 1 to 10. The post had over 300 comments and the debate was vigorous — or perhaps I should say caffeinated.
ThinYak2597 had clearly touched a nerve. I was totally delighted by this post. It was such an earnest conversation about a really important question that is fundamental to what it means to live in a city: Where do you get a good cup of coffee around here?
So I wanted to meet the man behind the spreadsheet. It turns out his real name is Rodrigo [Casas]. Surprisingly, he's only been drinking coffee for about six months. Before that, he never drank it.
So when we got on the line for an interview, I began by asking him: What changed?
RODRIGO CASAS: I did not like the taste of it. I was more of a chai drinker. But then I had a barista at my job, and she made me a dirty chai to see how I liked it. And ever since then, I've been hooked.
DINGMAN: So is a dirty chai a chai tea with coffee in it?
CASAS: Yes, it will be, a dirty chai will have the chai and two shots of espresso.
DINGMAN: OK, tell me about that moment. What changed for you?
CASAS: At that moment is when I realized that there is more notes to coffee than I actually thought there was.
DINGMAN: OK, so this was a flavor decision, not a caffeine decision.
CASAS: Correct. It was just flavor. I'm a flavor chaser.
DINGMAN: A flavor chaser. OK. OK. So tell me what happened next? What made you decide to start traveling around all over the Valley and putting this ranking together?
CASAS: So I've been in the Valley for around 11 years now, and I never ventured out. So then I decided to take this new passion for coffee on the road. And that's what brings us here today.
DINGMAN: OK. OK. And so you started ranking the coffees and coffee drinks that you tried at each coffee shop on a scale from 0 to 10, with 10 being the best. What are you looking for when you evaluate a coffee shop?
CASAS: Way I rate my coffee is on: Will I order this again? That is my main takeaway. Like when drinking I'm like, this is good, I will order this again. Or not really, the one-and-done kind of thing.
DINGMAN: OK, but then there's gradations between that, right? Because you know you have some coffee shops on the list where that there's like a 7 out of 10. I'm assuming that's a drink you would order again, right?
CASAS: Yeah.
DINGMAN: But then you have some that are ranked as high as 9 or 10 out of 10. So what differentiates for you a 7 from a 9 or a 10?
CASAS: I started take into consideration like the environment of the coffee shop. If it's something like appealing that I'm like, "I want to come back here again. I want to actually enjoy my drink here." Versus some places I'm just like, "Get me my coffee and I'll leave."
DINGMAN: OK. OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What makes a good ambiance?
CASAS: I see it for me is mostly decor. What would make a good Instagram photo? ... And that's where I kind of go off of.
DINGMAN: And do you work remotely?
CASAS: I do not.
DINGMAN: You don't, OK. So for you, being in a coffee shop is purely like a leisure experience. It's not like you're looking for a place where you can post up with your laptop and get work done.
CASAS: Correct. I just do this strictly on my days off.
DINGMAN: OK. And you are sometimes going to two or three coffee shops a day, right?
CASAS: Sounds a little crazy, but I do.
DINGMAN: [LAUGHS] I mean it doesn't sound crazy for a flavor chaser. What have you noticed are major trends in Phoenix coffee places?
CASAS: The brown sugar espressos. I think every single coffee shop I've been to has them. And the way I go to coffee shops is that I go to the barista asking what they prefer, like what their go-to drink is. And a lot of times it is the brown sugar espressos.
DINGMAN: OK, so you're going off of barista recommendation.
CASAS: Yeah, I don't even look at the menu these days. I just go to them being like, "What do you recommend?"
DINGMAN: So what have you learned about what you like? Do you have a sense of whether you prefer darker roasts or lighter roasts?
CASAS: I find that I like the fruitier notes. Like there was one that I got from a local roaster and the notes were peach, apricot, lychee and cotton candy were the notes that was my favorite ...
DINGMAN: Cotton candy. Wow. Who was the roaster? Let's shout them out.
CASAS: That was Mythical Coffee out there in Gilbert.
DINGMAN: Mythical Coffee. OK. Yes. And they were one of the places that scored a 9 on your list.
So let's talk about the Reddit thing, because that's how I found out about you doing this. You posted your spreadsheet on Reddit, and you got literally hundreds of comments from people saying, "You gotta check out this place, you gotta check out that place."
Obviously, this being Reddit, some people were like, "This is totally wrong. I disagree with you." Talk a little bit about that experience, because I could imagine a thread going crazy like that being a little overwhelming or perhaps alarming for somebody who's just starting a journey. But it sounds like it has not slowed you down.
CASAS: It has not. It actually kind of built momentum. It did get a little — when I did post it on Reddit, I didn't expect to have such a turnout on recommendations. So the other day I went ahead and went through the entire thread, made a new spreadsheet of places to go, and they came out with 157 new recommendations. And yesterday I went ahead and hit three of them.
DINGMAN: Oh, my God. So that's five times as many places as just about as you've been to so far.
CASAS: Yes. It's going to be a long time before this journey ends.
DINGMAN: So let me ask you. You know, we've talked about Mythical, which is one of ... I believe, six places that you scored at a 9 on your list. There are a couple of places — and we won't name them, but that got 5s and 6s. So sort of low scores. What happened in those spots to make you score them lower?
CASAS: That is when I started taking in, like, "Does the coffee taste burnt? Because it tastes sour."
DINGMAN: OK.
CASAS: Like, one of the places, I actually didn't even finish drinking it. I just threw it away as soon as I head outside.
DINGMAN: Oh, yikes. Yeah, that's bad because those coffee drinks are not cheap either.
CASAS: No, they're not. ... I've probably spent around like $600 already.
DINGMAN: Six-hundred dollars in the course of making this spreadsheet?
CASAS: Yes.
DINGMAN: So you're really ... really putting your own money on the line here.
CASAS: I am. I've been picking up all these overtime shifts just to afford this new habit.
DINGMAN: Really?
CASAS: Yes.
DINGMAN: Wow. Wow. That's real commitment. That's real commitment. Well, let's think of two categories here that I want to have you give a recommendation for.
One would be the most interesting, creative, flavorful drink that you have found anywhere in the Valley. Does anything come to mind?
CASAS: Yumi's my favorite place.
DINGMAN: Ah, 10 out of 10.
CASAS: Because she had a sweet potato latte a few weeks ago. And you'll think sweet potato and a latte will be not good. But it was something that I came back for multiple times.
DINGMAN: A sweet potato latte. OK. I definitely want to try that. So that's at Yumi's Coffee, you said.
And then what about at the other end of the spectrum? Where would you go if — somebody's listening to this and they're like, I just, I love the taste of coffee in and of itself. I don't want anything adorning it.
I just want to go somewhere where the coffee in and of itself is gonna be really delicious. Give me a good pick-me-up. What would your choice be?
CASAS: I wanna say Xolo Coffee down the street from Yumi's. 'Cause that one is more of a Mexican-style coffee. You get a taste of coffee more than actually all the additives.
DINGMAN: All right, well, we are going to post Rodrigo's list on our website ... And I have been speaking with the keeper of the list, Rodrigo Casas, who is a newly-minted coffee lover and very dedicated, as you've heard, to the cause. Rodrigo, thank you so much for this conversation, and thank you for your service in introducing us to all of these cool new coffee shops.
CASAS: Anything for name of science.
