Sen. John Kavanagh outlines plans to house teachers in closed schools, regulate petting zoos

There’s been a shortage of both housing and teachers in Arizona for a while. And as you’ve no doubt heard, a number of school districts across the Valley and state have been closing schools, due to declining enrollment, among other factors.

So an Arizona lawmaker has an idea: Use shuttered schools as housing for teachers, first responders and others.

John Kavanagh is a Republican from Fountain Hills and the Senate majority leader. When The Show spoke him about how big of a dent he thinks that proposal would put in the housing shortage.

Full conversation

JOHN KAVANAGH: Well, I cannot tell a lie. It will not be a big dent because there aren't that many empty schools around, but they're certainly located in areas that need housing, especially for teachers and other public servants — police, firefighters — which this is directed towards. So will it solve the problem? No. Will it put a big dent in it? No. But I think it'll ding it.

BRODIE: Kind of seems like maybe this is a "something is better than nothing here" kind of bill. Is that a fair assessment?

KAVANAGH: Yeah, well, that may be a little more pessimistic than my ding, but yeah, we're on the right track.

BRODIE: OK. I'm curious to get your reaction to a concern that the state teachers union mentioned about this, which is essentially tying housing to employment, saying if you're a teacher and you're living in a vacant school building and you leave your job or lose your job, that you might also lose your housing.

Is that a concern of yours?

KAVANAGH: This is actually the first time that has come up, and I think I'll probably have to address that issue to some of the people involved in this. I don't think I want to shackle. I don't want to make teachers indentured servants. So that's something I think I'll address.

BRODIE: OK. I also would like to ask you about your bill that would set up hand washing stations next to petting zoos or near petting zoos. This, of course, came after some pretty serious illnesses at the Arizona State Fair, at the petting zoo over the summer. How logistically do you think that would work?

KAVANAGH: Well, it's really quite easy. I mean, the people who run these petting zoos, either at fairs or similar events or sometimes they go to people's birthday parties in backyards. They usually already have fencing. So they would simply have to alter the fencing, if it's not already so altered, to not allow people to reach in because you don't want kids passing by to reach in and touch the animals, get the E. coli and then eat something and get sick. So that's kind of easy.

The other issue is putting a sign up advising people of the need to hand wash upon leaving the facility and to provide such hand washing stations or sanitizing stations. Except in the case of backyards of homes which, you know, they can go into the restroom.

BRODIE: So are you thinking that it could be, for example, like a sink with soap or like a bottle of Purell nearby the petting zoo?

KAVANAGH: Yeah, they could have a stand with the Purell or they can have what you see at a lot of fairs and events, these little stand up hand washing sinks where you pump a little foot pedal and put some soap on and wash your hands. Either of those would work.

BRODIE: I'm interested in getting your take on one of the criticisms that I've heard of this bill, which is that it's kind of a nanny state bill. Like you're telling people if you're going to have a petting zoo, you have to provide hand washing and that people who go to the petting zoo have to then wash their hands. I'm curious to get your reaction to that.

KAVANAGH: Well, I mean, there are a lot of nanny state things that we do for public safety. I don't think preventing kids from getting E. coli and possibly being hospitalized is a bad goal. And I don't think responsible operation of petting zoos where you don't let kids do that, where you make sure parents know they have to wash their hands and you provide that.

I mean, I don't think that's nanny state. I guess these people kind of want to live in a savage world of no regulation. Well, you know, let's protect kids first.

BRODIE: Well, so how do you look at regulations when you're looking to potentially implement or impose new ones or not? Because obviously, Republicans tend to be the party of deregulation and not implementing new ones. So I'm curious how look at, OK, this is something that maybe we should do versus this is something that we should not.

KAVANAGH: Sure. First question: Do we need this for public safety? Second question: Is the regulation proposed overly onerous or with something less burdensome fulfill that first goal?

MARK BRODIE: And obviously you come out on the side of, with the petting zoos, this would be OK. Is it ever sort of a challenging discussion, sort of in your own mind about could there be something less onerous or maybe we do need to go this far?

KAVANAGH: It really depends on the issue and it depends how burdensome the regulation is. This is such a minimal burden — one that by the way, most operators already follow. I think this is already the law in Maricopa County. So this is more for counties which have not seen fit to pass such a law.

I think even in those counties, a lot of the operations already follow this procedure. But because we're talking about the health of people, especially young children who don't know any better, I think this is reasonable to fill in those gaps where there could be dangerous situations present.

BRODIE: So you mentioned the health of children. And there are some number of bills going through the state Legislature as well as through the federal government with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. dealing with health and the kinds of food and what can be in foods and what kinds of meals schools can serve.

Have you noticed a shift in thinking on that among your colleagues, about maybe the state should be looking into some of this stuff as opposed to in the past where there's a big outcry when states tried to ban or put a tax on sugary sodas, that kind of thing?

KAVANAGH: Well, I think Democrats have always been for a lot of regulations and rules on people. I think Robert Kennedy's suggestions resonated a bit more with Republicans. So it might have edged some less-regulation Republicans a little bit more to the regulatory side on those issues.

BRODIE: Well, yeah, I mean, a lot of the things, as you say, Democrats have been calling for for years, Republicans are now kind of getting on board with.

KAVANAGH: Yeah, like I said, maybe they never realized it and didn't listen to the Democrats and listen more to Robert Kennedy. Or maybe they always thought these were a great idea and Robert Kennedy gives them cover.