SAM DINGMAN: As you may have heard last week on The Show, I used to work at this big tech company, and I really didn’t fit in there. So I spent a lot of my days hiding from my co-workers, listening to music.
And there’s an artist I discovered back then named Hayes Carll — he had this song called “Drunken Poet’s Dream” that I just loved. It’s about living a life of recklessness and depravity, not doing what you know you should do, just because it feels good — something about that idea was really resonant for me back then.
So I’ve been following Carll’s music for a while, and the more I got into his work, I realized there was something else that was drawing me to him: he was good friends with my favorite songwriter, the late Todd Snider, who you might’ve also heard me talk about.
So for all these reasons, when I saw that Carll was coming to Phoenix this month — he’ll be at Crescent Ballroom this Friday — I thought I’d see if he’d be willing to talk. And thankfully, he was.
Hayes is touring in support of his new album, “We’re Only Human.” And when we spoke last week, I began by asking him about something I’d heard him say in another interview: that he never used to write songs to figure out what was going on with him internally. But that on this record, that had changed.
Full conversation
HAYES CARLL: It’s interesting. Last night I went to a funeral service for my friend Todd Snider.
DINGMAN: Oh, my goodness.
CARLL: And he had always had a quote that resonated with me, which was, “I don’t write these songs to change anybody’s mind about anything, but I write them to ease my own mind about everything.”
DINGMAN: Yes. Yes.
CARLL: And that always had really resonated with me, and I appreciated it. But when I reflected upon it, I realized I wasn’t necessarily doing that in my own songwriting. And I hit a certain point in my personal life — a divorce, and I just had a birthday last week and turned 50 —
DINGMAN: Happy birthday.
CARLL: Thank you. I appreciate it. I had a big time. But it kind of, it made me — I was a bit lost in my own life and, and for the first time, I started using the writing and the music to sort through some of that stuff.
DINGMAN: Thank you for sharing all that, and I’m really glad you brought up Todd, because I’m a huge fan of his as well. And I have a couple other questions for you about that for later, but one of the moments on the record where this way of thinking about songwriting really came through for me is on the song “High.”
[“HIGH” BY HAYES CARLL PLAYS]
I just don’t think I’d ever heard anybody express that sentiment of escaping the moment but not quite all the way, if I heard that correctly. Like, it’s not about totally trying to disappear from reality, but just take a little distance from it.
CARLL: Yeah. It was a funny one for me. I mean, admittedly, I wrote it when I was stoned, or that that line came up. And so I was being quite literal when I came up with the line. I was like, “Oh, this is just perfect. I’m in that sweet spot of where I’m relaxed and comfortable and at ease and feeling creative and feeling present, and that’s how I want my drugs to, you know, work for me.”
But then I started thinking about it, and I thought, it’s not about the drugs. Like, that’s how I go through life, is struggling to just be centered and at peace and not overwhelmed and have my monkey mind racing all the time, ruminating on the past or being anxious about the future.
And so much of my life has been less enjoyable than I would have liked it to, to be because of that. It’s just sort of a reminder to myself, that song. It’s a fun one because I’ll be singing it live, and I’ll be anxious about something or my mind will be somewhere else, and I’ll hear the lyrics and I’ll go, “Oh, yeah, this was for you to remember, you can come back to this place of being centered.”
DINGMAN: Yes. Yeah. I mean, I hear you saying in that that you’re doing the Todd thing you were just referencing of singing the songs to ease your own mind.
CARLL: I equate it to a snow globe. My brain, so much of my life it’s just been shooken up, and I can’t see in front of my face. And I just got tired of it, and finally I think I reached a point where it’s like, let’s figure this out for whatever time we got left.
DINGMAN: Yeah.
CARLL: Because I’ve got a great life, and I’d like to enjoy it more than I have been able to traditionally.
DINGMAN: Another song where you’re addressing really vulnerable emotions is “I Got Away With It.” And on that song, you have lyrics like, “I acted like some kind of stranger when she desperately needed a friend, and I made such a mess out of all that was left, and it won’t fit together again.”
And you said once in an interview that that song is, among other things, about not always having been the man you want to be.
CARLL: Yeah, I’ve been married and divorced twice, and I have a lot of regrets. You know, there’s that saying: We do the best we can with what we have at the time. I mean, I want to hold myself accountable and recognize where I went wrong or where I could have improved, but also have some grace for myself.
And it’s not me trying to beat myself up, but it is an acknowledgement of where I fell short of who I wanted to be for other people.
DINGMAN: Yeah. Well, again, thank you for sharing that. And it really made me think, as I was listening to that song, about the first song of yours I ever heard, the way I discovered your music, which I’m sure is true of many people. There’s a lot of people who love this song, “Drunken Poet’s Dream.”
[“DRUNKEN POET’S DREAM” BY HAYES CARLL PLAYS]
I realized that that was maybe at a time in your life where you weren’t necessarily writing from an autobiographical place, but that song is so much about leaning into excess and indulgence. And it was interesting to me to think about the arc between the lyrics of that song and a song like “I Got Away With It,” which as you were just referring to, is about rebuilding and acknowledging damage.
CARLL: Yeah. I think I certainly went through a lot of life at high speed, and a lot of the music I grew up on is romanticizing this debaucherous life and this drunkenness and the womanizing and the travel and the extremes of everything. And I was very drawn to that.
It’s very romantic. And there’s a lot of good times in that. But it was not balanced or sustainable. And like I said, I’m much more interested these days in finding the things that I don’t have to rely on outer stimuli to find happiness or peace.
DINGMAN: I realize we’re sort of making it sound like this record is like totally self-flagellating. And I want listeners to understand there is some of that, but it’s not all that.
And I got the sense that part of the idea behind the title — which is “We’re Only Human” — was to encourage people not just to look at their own failings and cravings and needs through the lens that you are here, but also when they look at other people who are doing things that they don’t understand or that seem just totally reckless or stupid or foolish or whatever the case may be, to give them a little bit of grace, too.
CARLL: Yeah. You know, I think I’m a decent human being, and I try hard. I just don’t always get it right.
DINGMAN: Yeah. Well, I have to ask: In answering that question, you. You almost directly quoted a Todd Snyder song, “Alright Guy” — “I know I ain’t perfect, but Lord knows I try.”
And one of the other things I thought about when I was listening to “I Got Away With It” is that Todd, of course, has a song called “You Got Away With It.”
[“YOU GOT AWAY WITH IT” BY TODD SNIDER PLAYS]
And I wondered if there was any attempt on that song to pay homage to him.
CARLL: That’s funny. I hadn’t thought about that until you just mentioned it.
DINGMAN: Oh, really? Oh, OK.
CARLL: Yeah. I mean, Todd was a hero of mine. One thing I loved about Todd was among many was his songs were not judgmental. So even his worst characters, there is a little bit of grace for him in the way that Todd put things. And I always loved that.
DINGMAN: And that’s how we got your record, “We’re Only Human.”
CARLL: Yeah.
DINGMAN: Well, I have been speaking with Hayes Carll, whose 10th album, “We’re Only Human,” is out now. And Hayes will be performing at Crescent Ballroom on Friday, Jan. 30. Hayes, thank you for this conversation.
CARLL: Thank you. I enjoyed it.
["WE’RE ONLY HUMAN" BY HAYES CARLL PLAYS]
-
Maria Rosario Jackson recently returned to ASU. She’d been a professor there previously, but took a break a few years ago to serve as President Joe Biden's chair of the National Endowment for the Arts. -
Josiah Enriquez retained his title by a two-point difference. The now three-peat adult division champ, who is Navajo and from the pueblos of Isleta and Pojoaque in New Mexico, made history Sunday night. -
The book weaves together Phillips’ poetry, prose, old photographs, newspaper clippings, restaurant ads and more, creating a pastiche of life in 1980s and 1990s Tombstone, where Logan Phillips grew up. -
A Scottsdale bar manager is accused of racism after a troubling incident during the Super Bowl halftime show. -
To celebrate Valentine's Day, The Show wanted to feature some Arizona musicians who’ve used their music to reflect on love of all kinds.
