These 2 Phoenix comedians used their racial identities to find laughs, audience connection

SAM DINGMAN: As you may have gathered from the fact that I often do interviews with comedians, I find stand-up comedy to be a fascinating art form. Aside from being, you know, funny, walking into a stand-up show is like stepping into a real-time laboratory for the elements of culture that we agree and disagree on.

But recently, I realized that for all the conversations with comedians we’ve had here on The Show, we’ve mostly spoken to comics from other cities who are coming to Phoenix to perform. And today, we want to reverse that.

In the studio with me today, I’ve got two comics who are both regulars on the Phoenix comedy circuit, but also have plenty of experience taking their acts on the road. Their names are Anwar Newton, he’s been doing comedy here for over 12 years . Good morning, Anwar.

ANWAR NEWTON: Good morning.

DINGMAN: And Kamran Khan, who’s been at it for almost three years. Hey, Kamran.

KAMRAN KHAN: Good morning.

DINGMAN: So let’s see if we can paint a picture of what the Phoenix comedy scene looks like from your guys’ perspectives. Not asking you to speak on behalf of the entire scene, of course, to start.

And Anwar, let’s start with you for this one. Thinking back to when you were first getting on stage around town, what was your perception of the Phoenix comedy scene?

NEWTON: I think it was very busy. There were mics going on all the time. Social media wasn’t a thing when I started, at least in the capacity that it is now. Instagram was still a place you posted pictures of food.

DINGMAN: How quaint.

NEWTON: Yeah. Facebook was still a place where you got into arguments that meant something. And Twitter was still very confusing.

So stand-up comedy in that sense was still very live. It was still very present. And the aspirations were HBO. They weren’t even Netflix. The aspirations were getting a show on Comedy Central or having an HBO special.

And the room was filled with people at open mics and booked shows who were thinking in that way.

DINGMAN: Yeah.

NEWTON: And there were tons of comics on the scene.

DINGMAN: Yeah. What about, like from a material standpoint, like by reputation. Did it seem like a welcoming group of people to join? Were you intimidated?

NEWTON: Oh, dude. The people on the scene when I started, they were all so cool. I remember I first started at a place called the Turf in downtown Phoenix, which is not the Turf anymore. It was a horse betting place. So people weren’t there to laugh. They were there to get rich quick.

And I would just go to the mic, and I would sit in the back of the room and just watch people go up. I never was one of those people like, “Oh, 15, 16, I’m gonna be a stand-up comedian.” I was like 28, and I’m sitting in the back of the room because I just needed something to do with my time in life at the time.

And I’m sitting in the back of the room watching comics go up. And I remember a good friend of mine named Mike Dapper. He was like, he would go around, he would work the room before he went up. And it was an open mic. So he’ll go up and be like, “Hey, how are you? I’m about to go up on stage. It’s gonna be really great.” He would warm people up, so by the time he went up on stage, people would listen and watch. So in that sense, people are very welcoming. People were trying their hardest to get attention in the room and make the show that was happening in that room as special as it could be.

DINGMAN: Yeah. Kamran, you started, if I’m not mistaken, June of 2023.

KHAN: That’s correct.

DINGMAN: So in the thick of social media, all the things that Anwar was just saying were so far away when he started are the coins of the realm now. So what was it like for you when you were considering getting on stage?

KHAN: Yeah, I think I would echo Anwar’s point, which is like, everyone was very welcoming. I remember actually looking up where open mics would be. Open mics are where you get your first sets in, right? And so I called up a comedy club and they didn’t answer and I was like, “Thank God. Like, I guess I don’t have to do it.”

And then to my surprise, they called me back and they were like, “Hey, we got a call from this number.”

And I was like, “Do you guys run an open mic?”

And they’re like, “Yeah.”

And then I was like, “Oh, OK.”

And then she’s like, “Do you want to come?”

I was like, “Yeah, I guess I’ll do that.” And then that’s how I started. So it was literally an invitation to go perform.

DINGMAN: So that’s already very interesting to me because, having had conversations like this back in New York, where I used to live, the idea of a comic calling a comedy club and in the first place and getting a call back because they want to do it for their first time.

NEWTON: It’s crazy.

DINGMAN: Is kind of crazy.

KHAN: Shout out JP’s Comedy Club in Gilbert.

DINGMAN: So there’s something interesting about that idea. It kind of echoes what you were saying, Anwar, that there was a welcomingness to it. I want to ask you specifically, Kamran, you put up a post on Instagram about you were just a few months in, I think, to doing comedy. And you said, “A while ago I would travel for work, and I would write these jokes in my notebook.

And I finally gave myself permission to get up on stage and tell them.” Tell me about the jokes you were writing and what it was like to get up and do them in front of people for the first time.

KHAN: Oh, man. I think everyone who is like just writing stuff down without trying it in a stand-up format has no idea what’s actually gonna work. So it’s like you watch your favorite comedians do like crazy jokes, often offensive jokes, and you’re just like, “I think I could do that.” And then you write them down and it’s funny in your head.

Cause you’re like imagining you’re confident and you’re on point saying. And then you get up there and you’re just like a nervous mess and you make people mad. So it didn’t translate at all. But I would just write about things that I saw. Like, I was in airports a lot on planes and stuff.

So then I would just write down random stuff that made me laugh. But I think whatever I wrote, I just kind of ended up throwing out because you’re going up there and then like, you’re about to get on stage for the first time, you’re nervous. The thing you thought was funny is no longer funny.

And then like, right? You’re just like, “This is not going to work.” And then the comedian before you does something crazy. I remember my very first set. The guy who went up before me looked like Jeffrey Dahmer, looked exactly like Jeffrey Dahmer. And his set — I’m not even joking — his set was all about body parts.

He was like a medical student, and so he was just talking about anatomy. And I was like, “Come on, this is like crazy.”

DINGMAN: Did he acknowledge that?

KHAN: No, he didn’t. So I had to go up there and be like, “Are you guys kidding? Like, Jeffrey Dahmer literally just did a set here.”

DINGMAN: OK, this is fascinating to me. This is actually what I wanted to talk to you both about is there’s this idea I often hear comedians talk about that the audience — or sometimes other comics in your case, Kamran — the audience tells you who you are. You have this idea of the kind of material you want to do.

But then once you get up there, the way you are received in the room changes everything. Anwar, was that your experience?

NEWTON: I mean, I’m a giant, intimidating Black guy. So whatever I thought I was saying was through that lens. So, yeah, you have to understand how to understand people’s perceptions of you and manipulate and work within that to get your messaging across. Like, I would go on stage and I would try to have these sort of hot takes or perspectives on issues. And then I quickly learned that people are just seeing this giant, angry Black guy talk.

So then I had to, like, actively loosen my presence on stage up and get very silly and wacky and zany just to talk about hot button issues, because people have this defense about this wronged demographic coming to them and talking about something so hot.

DINGMAN: Wow. So am I hearing you right, that you felt like you had to make them feel safe? To make yourself feel safe?

NEWTON: Yes. I had to to make you feel safe by showing how silly and loose and zany I could be. And honestly, it’s the best thing that could have happened because I would be up on stage just begrudgingly taking people to task and thinking it was hilarious to me that I was doing it. And it was. It was to sit in a room full of people and be like, “This is what’s wrong with you.“

But it wasn’t fun for them.

DINGMAN: Right, right. So, Kamran, we have about 30 seconds before the break.

What is your relationship with that experience, the audience telling you?

KHAN: I think I’m the exact opposite of Anwar. I’m a very small Pakistani man. So I could get away with yelling at the audience because everyone just looked at me like a yapping chihuahua. Like, no one took it seriously.

But that was great because I could literally tell somebody in the audience, like deadpan, like, “F you,” and then stare at them. And they’re like, “This is great. We love this.” Because I’m not intimidating at all.

Amber Victoria Singer

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DINGMAN: That’s fascinating.

You’ve both had to navigate the way that you’re perceived in the room as you develop your material. I’ve heard you both make fun of racial attitudes in your sets. And if I could, I wanted to play a clip from each of you that kind of illustrates that dynamic and how you’ve dealt with it.

Anwar, we’re going to start with you. This is part of a longer bit that you do about having a light-skinned son and wanting him to have light-skinned role models. Let’s listen.

CLIP OF NEWTON: The light-skinned role model that I put on the wall in my son’s room is the Rock. Got an “ay.” I got a head nod. Anybody else, head nods? Agree? We agree he’s Black, right? Black person in the back went like this. We don’t claim him. Why? We do not claim the Rock?

The Rock is half black. Do you guys know his parents? He got a Hawaiian mom. He got a Black daddy, right? Last time I checked, in this country, you got one Black parent, you Black. You might be mixed, but you ain’t never 100% the other thing. I don’t know why y’all got confused. His name is Dwayne Johnson.

DINGMAN: All right, so there’s obviously a lot to respond to in that clip. But the thing I think is really interesting — I’m curious if you agree, Anwar — is the whole time you’re stepping into territory, and I feel like you can hear the room being a little nervous about what they’re allowed to respond to, what they’re allowed to laugh at.

NEWTON: It’s my favorite part.

DINGMAN: And then at the end you say, “His name is Dwayne Johnson.” You get this huge laugh. And in that moment, it’s like they’re laughing at the idea that that is a “Black” name, and you haven’t even said it yet. So tell me a little bit about how you developed that bit and how you dealt with that dynamic.

NEWTON: Well, it’s just like racial dynamics period, right? There are people who are mixed race, and they have to decide which race they are going to represent. And then the people will decide which race you are. And there’s other people in pop culture who are like that. Rashida Jones is one of them.

She’s Quincy Jones’ daughter. She’s a Black woman, but no one perceives her as a Black woman. She’s white-coded. And the Rock obviously is Samoan-coded. He’s represented Samoan culture a lot. He’s also represented his Black side, but people view him as a Samoan man. And it’s just funny to play around with the fact that he is Black, dude.

And in this country, we do treat people who have Black parents as Black people in negative ways and in positive ways. And I just think it’s so funny that he spent so much time talking about his Samoan side, and his name is Dwayne Johnson. There’s no Samoan in that name.

DINGMAN: Right. But the other thing that’s interesting to me that I hear in there is kind of alluding to what you were talking about earlier. You’re pointing at this very complex, fraught idea of how we deal with race in America. And the way you get there is by talking about the fact that you’re a dad and you have a son. And you want to put a poster on his wall.

Was that always the through line or did you have to bolt that on in order to get to the more topical element of it?

NEWTON: Well, originally, the joke started off just making fun of the Rock. Like, I would have this joke, I would have this idea that I reached the final stage of manhood because I unfollowed the Rock on Instagram. I thought that was a very funny idea. Ron Funches has a very funny joke where he’s like, “The Rock is Beyoncé for dudes.”

And everyone treats him like this gladiator and everything. And I wanted to make fun of him, period. And then I had a son. So this is an idea I had for a long time. My son is 6 now. And I connected the racial conversations he would have in his life with the Rock and how to represent it.

Because my son is a quarter white. His mom is half Black and half white, and I’m Black and Black. And I was like, “Oh, let’s play around with a very silly idea of like coming to terms with your racial identity.”

DINGMAN: Yeah. All right, Kamran, let’s hear one of your bits. This one, I think is pretty self-explanatory. Let’s listen.

CLIP OF KHAN: Statistically, a couple of you people probably think I’m Latino. No hablo español, soy Pakistani. To the ICE agent, that’s definitely in here: I don’t speak Spanish. I’m Pakistani.

I was born in America, but I’ve accepted I’m getting deported. Please just make it to the right country.

DINGMAN: All right, Kamran, so obviously there similar phenomenon happening. You’re using yourself to get into this much bigger idea. Talk a little bit about finding that way. Because just before the break, you were talking about how you could kind of stare at somebody and realize what your dynamic was with them. Talk about getting from that moment to the moment of this joke.

KHAN: That joke was, like, a combination of lines that I knew had worked. Like, for whatever reason, when I would get on stage. I mean, I’m Pakistani, but I’m often confused for being Mexican. So I played with that a lot on stage, and then whenever I would say, “Soy Pakistani,” for whatever reason, people love that line.

So I don’t know. It’s one of those things. They just respond to it very well. And so that whole joke was, kind of before that show, that was a big show I was hosting for my friend Chase Harder. And you usually aren’t supposed to do jokes you just came up with. Like, that’s often a bad idea.

But I went for it that time, and it worked out. So that was a combination of ideas and lines that I knew worked. And then I was just like, “I have a feeling this will work, because with all the stuff going on in the country,” and then it did do good.

Although that was before, you know, the recent escalations.

DINGMAN: Sure, sure. But what did that feel like, to get that response? Did that give you some kind of clue that that’s a direction you want to push more in?

KHAN: Yeah, I think so. You always kind of want to follow — like, to a degree, I think there’s a mix of, like, what you want to do as a comedian and also what the audience responds to. Because if you’re just doing what the audience responds to, then you’re pandering. But if you’re just doing what you want to, you’ll often be bombing.

DINGMAN: So this makes me want to ask you both a question. How do you not lose yourself in that process? Because the laugh is the currency, right? If you’re not getting the laughs — I hear comics say, like, it’s not working. But you do have to have some bedrock of sense of self, right. Anwar, what do you feel about that?

NEWTON: Yeah, dude, you gotta — It’s that fearlessness, man. Like, the comedians that are my biggest influences that really are the parents of my style are Patrice O’Neal and Rory Scovel. And both of them have a fearlessness. Rory Scovel filmed a special on YouTube where he spent a week with no set, and he was just gonna create in the room night after night for a week in.

I don’t know which (city). Atlanta, I think. But not hearing laughs can be very jolting. But you have to also remember that if people are quiet, they’re listening.

DINGMAN: So if I’m hearing you right, it’s good to have those moments where they’re not laughing but you know you’re being yourself, because whatever’s on the other side of that is the thing that’s gonna work.

NEWTON: Yeah. And then you’ll find on the other side, it’s like there’s this laughter that’s not even on the punchline. People are just laughing at your existence. They’re laughing at who you are. And those are the purest laughs. I’ll sometimes be on stage and be talking and I hear people laughing. I’m not even saying anything.

They’re just, they’re tickled by my entire existence.

DINGMAN: Kamran, I wanted to ask you — we have just a minute or so left here — but you left Phoenix for a little while, went to do comedy in Chicago. Now you’re back. Talk a little bit about what you found about how you were received there versus how you’re received here.

KHAN: Yeah, that’s a great question. I feel like in Chicago, it’s such a diverse city, and then it leans very blue politically. So I felt like the low hanging fruit, sort of like self-deprecation, race jokes didn’t go over as well because they’ve heard it a million times.

DINGMAN: That’s really interesting.

KHAN: Yeah, yeah. And so I had to dig deeper a lot to figure out more interesting stuff to talk about. And I think whatever — the jokes that I came up with there were more universally well received than the jokes that I came up with when I started here at first and then tried to take them elsewhere.

So it was like the toughness of that city and the diversity and the challenge in making those audiences laugh made me a better comedian, I think.

DINGMAN: Well, I selfishly am very glad you’re now back here in Phoenix plying your trade.

KHAN: Thank you.