This Arizona senator says religion should not be used as 'political football'

LAUREN GILGER: And now let’s continue with our new series here on The Show about religion at the state Legislature and how lawmakers’ religions affect the way they vote, the issues they care about and maybe even why they ran for office to begin with. We’re calling it Ditat Deus, or God Enriches. That is Arizona’s state motto, after all.

And today let’s turn to Arizona Senator T.J. Shope, a Republican from Coolidge who’s been in the legislature for the last 14 years. Shope is what we might call a cradle Catholic.

T.J. SHOPE: My grandmother played the organ at our parish for over 40 years. I grew up, you know, sitting up in the choir loft and singing along. Well, I don’t know. But, you know, I was an altar boy for, you know, all the way up through high school and such, and still a dues-paying member in our Knights of Columbus.

LAUREN GILGER: A childhood growing up in the church are what he called core memories for him.

T.J. SHOPE: It’s, it’s, it’s the ceremonial things that you often remember most, especially being an altar server is, you know, who gets to carry the cross in? Who, who was handling the incense, for example, as you, as you walked in? Of course, the best job that everybody wanted was who was going to ring the bells at the proper time during the sacramental offerings, etc.

LAUREN GILGER: His dad’s side of the family is from Iowa, but his mother is from Mexico. And he told me his hometown Catholic parish in Coolidge has always had a distinctly Latino vibe.

T.J.SHOPE: My dad is probably, you know, referred to as Don Tomas more often than not now because it’s a very Hispanic-heavy parish and much like Coolidge as a whole.

LAUREN GILGER: Shope remembers tamales at Christmas and fish fries on Fridays during Lent. But today, he is one of the lawmakers at 1700 West Washington who talks the least about religion.

I sat down with him recently at the state Capitol to talk more about how he thinks about his religion today and how it’s played a role in his work as a state lawmaker.

T.J. SHOPE: You know, it’s funny because when you invited me to, to chat about this, I—I realized that probably 14 years that I’ve been here, I don’t think I’ve ever spoken about that at all. And I think that as I reflected on it before doing this, I—I was thinking to myself, well, maybe, you know, I—it’s a product of something that I’ve seen often, I guess, is that—and we’ve seen with Catholic presidents or candidates for higher office and things.

It just doesn’t seem to be something that is often, you know, a centerpiece of—of discussion, right? It’s not necessarily the thing that I go to immediately when I’m thinking about like a tax policy or an infrastructure policy that I’m trying to—to do. But it’s, am I using my position in a way that I think of myself trying to be a good person and trying to be good to others? Was that shaped by religion? Probably.

But I can’t say that for me it’s something that I’m doing X, Y, Z because of this chapter, verse in the Bible or something. I mean, and not to knock that, I have plenty of colleagues that I—I know that probably go to it more than I do. To me, I guess if you’re getting to the right—the right end, how you get there is kind of not consequential to me as long as we’re—we’re working towards the same shared goal and the same shared idea of trying to do the right thing.

LAUREN GILGER: It’s interesting. So I want to talk about some of the moments in which religion comes to bear at the Legislature. I mean, like every day you open session with a prayer, right?

Often you’ll have like you said, colleagues speaking about their religion. Lots of folks will say, you know, "I was sent by God to be here." Like, "I feel like this is, you know, where I’m meant to be for these very specific religious reasons."

T.J. SHOPE: Well, if it were a vow of poverty, I’m guessing that that would be one thing, but—

LAUREN GILGER: There is one of those in the Catholic Church, but not for you. I wonder, so are there moments when this feels like it comes to bear, though? Like your religion either feels like it is centric to something that you’re voting on, or the opposite, where it really feels like it might conflict?

T.J. SHOPE: I think anytime that there is something very difficult facing you, whether it’s in life, whether it’s here at the Capitol, I think most people go to something. I can’t lie to you and say that I haven’t lied in bed before an important vote the next day. You know, you wake up at 2:00 in the morning or something and you’re just thinking about what you have to do.

So many times, there are so many passions that run high in this place, both pro and con on an issue. There has to be somebody that is the person that is just going to try and calm things. And that is probably one of the things that I try to do the most in this place.

And that’s not necessarily, "I need your guidance on a vote," or, "I need, you know, the Lord’s help to see something clearer." It is oftentimes the help to be that voice that is going to be able to bring the temperature down and try by example at least to help my colleagues treat each other well.

LAUREN GILGER: Yeah, that’s a sort of counterintuitive point of view on this. I like it.

Let me ask you about one of the moments where I think you have had to be at least answer these questions, right? And I think I asked you them at the time. You came in a couple of years ago when we were looking at a very contentious vote on abortion at the state Legislature — the repeal of this 1864 almost total ban on abortion that criminalized doctors.

You were one of just two Republicans at the time who broke with your party and voted to repeal that. And abortion obviously a big issue for Catholics. How did you reconcile that? How did you think about it?

T.J. SHOPE: You know, I think that for me and — and somebody who’s a pro-life individual, still characterize myself as such, we don’t make decisions here in a vacuum. And I know that for many folks that are out there, they see one bill come up, and it can be any bill, and they say, "If you’re yes on this, this means X. Or if you’re a no on this, this means something else."

The reality is that in that case, we had a ballot measure that was attempting at the time to get signatures to put a question on the ballot. And we had to make a determination. And I — I had made that determination in — in my mind anyway of what is the lesser of these in my mind two evils that I’m faced with.

In my thought process at the time was that by voting to repeal the 1864 law, we would stand a better chance of defeating the measure in November, thereby keeping many of the other restrictions that we’d had.

LAUREN GILGER: Did you hear from Catholics, Catholic leaders, people saying, you know, "You can’t vote this way"?

T.J. SHOPE: It was a mixed bag. Yeah, it was definitely — it was definitely a mixed bag. I was still, come November, campaigned against by folks on the left because I — it’s not like I’d had an epiphany or anything like that and had changed my viewpoint on the subject. And then you still had folks on the right who maybe I was not able to touch and — and have them at least understand what my thought process was. My ultimate tenant in this place has been a genuine respect towards people’s viewpoints.

You know, I guess that probably puts me as a — as a bit of an outlier in a — in a place where either on the left, I’ve seen colleagues use religion to say, "Hey, well, you ought to be using the government to fund X, Y, Z." And on the right, obviously, "We ought to be using the government to not do other things."

And it is most definitely used as a political football. And I think if there’s one area that I would fall on is that look, religion should — and your faith in God and your faith in — and if you don’t believe in God, your faith in whatever else that you have, the idea that it’s used as a political football to me is something I’ve never really been a big fan of.

LAUREN GILGER: I want to ask about immigration. We’re seeing ICE raids across the country, outrage about that, lots of debate on this front. The Pope, the Catholic Pope, has spoken out against the inhumane treatment of immigrants in the country, talking about how Jesus was a migrant. The bishops have followed suit.

I wonder what you make of that and sort of these moments when your religion tends to cross with your politics?

T.J. SHOPE: Yeah, I mean, I — it’s definitely something that’s been brought to me. I mean, I’d be a liar if I didn’t say that I haven’t heard that and something, you know, especially with my voting record, which I stand by 100%. It’s hard to separate that. I’m Hispanic. I also vote that way, right? I mean, I support hardline immigration policies. So it’s something that definitely comes up.

But the reality is is that I have to make a decision on what I think is best for the citizens of this state and public safety. I want to make sure that the citizens of this country, the people who are entitled to getting help are the ones who are receiving it. So whether that interacts in a negative way with my religion is something that I have to deal with. And ultimately, if you — if you are a believer, you will have that final opportunity to — to see if you were right or wrong. I’m not sure. It —

LAUREN GILGER: Is it for you like about your personal, I guess, political points of view there conflicting and saying, "You know what, this overrides it?" Is it because of your constituency that you’re representing?

T.J. SHOPE: I don’t even think it’s about the constituency. I think that, it’s just, you know, my personal belief. And I think that whether that shaped by religion or not, and could be a question, I’m not sure.

But the reality is is that you come in, you make — you try to make the right decisions based on the issue that’s facing you. And that’s if there’s any guidance that you ask for, that I ask for, it’s to stay true to myself, to go ahead and make sure that I have the courage to do what I think is right.

LAUREN GILGER: Do you think the Pope is wrong on this? The bishops are wrong?

T.J. SHOPE: Do I think? I mean, you know, I don’t know that I would use that phraseology. I would say that we just disagree.

LAUREN GILGER: Disagree. Senator T.J. Shope, thank you so much.

T.J. SHOPE: You bet.

KJZZ's The Show transcripts are created on deadline. This text is edited for length and clarity, and may not be in its final form. The authoritative record of KJZZ's programming is the audio record.

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