How do the spaces in which we spend our time impact our mindset?
Leidy Klotz explores that question — and others — in his book "In a Good Place: How the Spaces Where We Live, Work and Play Can Help Us Thrive."
Klotz is a professor at the University of Virginia, where he studies the intersection of architecture, engineering and behavioral science.
He spoke with The Show, starting with where Klotz starts his book. One of the things he points out is that this is not crowded space he’s occupying — we tend not to think about these different areas as being connected. The Show asked why Klotz thinks that is.
Full conversation
LEIDY KLOTZ: Yeah, I mean, so the different areas being just kind of our physical world and our mental world, right? And I think if you bring that up, most people would say, "Yeah, that, of course, there's overlap there." But just the way we kind of organize knowledge spreads them apart. I think that would be the main reason, right?
So, one of the stories you're mentioning earlier in the book is me walking around the bookstore, right? And going to psychology in one section and then like, you know, the design stuff in another section. And so, and the same on the campus where I work, where it's like the engineering school is over here, and then psychology is, you know, 200 yards away, and then architecture's all the way across campus.
And so, I think the way that we split up knowledge to try to understand things in more detail is probably the biggest reason. But then we miss out on opportunities where clearly like kind of the physical and the mental world overlap.
MARK BRODIE: Well, yeah, what do we lose out on when we don't sort of think of those, you know, on the same Venn diagram?
LEIDY KLOTZ: Yeah, so I mean, if you're thinking about on the mental side, we always are trying to work on ways to make ourselves better, right? To make our inner lives better. And if the physical surroundings that you're putting yourself in play a big role in that, and you're not considering it, then you're like losing one of the best opportunities to make your inner life better.
And it goes the other way, too, right? If all you're thinking about with the outer world, you know, is like the furniture and the fixtures and the paint colors, you're really not thinking about all the ways that that world can make you your mental life better.
MARK BRODIE: How subjective is all of this?
LEIDY KLOTZ: I try — I mean, it's subjective, but it's not as, I think, this — I'm glad you asked that question because it's not as subjective as it needs to be. ... I think, so like, the science is teaching us more and more, and I think that's another big reason why these two haven't kind of come together more, is because like the science on on the mental side is rapidly advancing.
But I think the items that I talk about in the book, so agency, competence and connection, are these like basic psychological needs that we all have ... it's not subjective. So we have those basic psychological needs, and our physical environment either feeds or starves them.
And so I think if we can focus on that before getting into some of some of the things that are more subjective, like, you know, paint colors and things like that, that's a really good start towards addressing this relationship between our inner and our outer worlds.
MARK BRODIE: Well, so a lot of us, for example, don't have much choice when it comes to the place where we work, right? Like we work for — especially if we work for a company or an employer of some sort. I'm wondering how those kinds of of entities, you know, employers, companies, businesses, are trying to think about the workspaces in which their employees are working, and maybe the extent to which their employees are in, you know, an employee-owned place, as opposed to, you know, working at home or working at a coffee shop or library or something like that?
LEIDY KLOTZ: Well, first, I mean, if we don't have a choice, I think that's a really good signal to look for places where we do have a choice, right? So, regardless of what your employer does, if you recognize that your agency and your choice in the space is being stifled, and if that's the thing that's frustrating you, then you can look for places where you actually do have a say in those surroundings, right?
So, you might have been told you have to return to office, but can you choose your commute time and can you choose where to work when you're working on a project? You can go into a conference room or can you work in the company cafe or whatever? But I think that's just good general advice is when we feel like a space is constraining us, look for places where it's not, and then use your agency there, and that will make you feel better about the whole situation.
But then on the other side, right, I think most companies are not trying to make their employees feel like they're not valued, right? Or that they don't have a say in the organization. And looking at the space as an opportunity to advertise that message. So every mission statement says, "Oh, we want our employees to be stakeholders ... and to lead the way." And so how do you have the space also be sending that message, right?
And it's clear when it's not, you know, like "Office Space" where — who is it, Milton? Who keeps getting sent to worse and worse places ... and eventually he's like in the basement with his red stapler and he can't ...
But what about opportunities to show that people have agency through it, right? So can you leave parts of the space unfinished, for example? I mean, not completely unfinished, but you could also just say, "OK, the conference room is available for the special project that you're going to be working on for the next month, let us know how you want to set it up."
MARK BRODIE: Do you think that we notice our physical environments and sort of take stock of them as much as we did before we all had, you know, little computers in our pockets?
LEIDY KLOTZ: Well, no, but also we weren't very good at it when even before. So like habituation, right, we're just like we've evolved to tune out things that aren't an opportunity or a threat, right? If you if you had to notice every little thing about the world as you were moving through it, you wouldn't be able to get anything done.
And as you point out, the screens are not making it better. And I think the real, you know, tragedy there is that screens do amazing things, and, um, you know, they're part of what how we're connecting right now. Yeah. But they're two-dimensional, they're only working with our sight and our sound at most, right? They're not touching all of our senses.
And our physical world, this is, you know, that can do all those things for us. And so we're getting drawn out of this world that can meet our basic psychological needs and putting ourselves into one where just fundamentally cannot happen.
MARK BRODIE: Well, so what do we do about that, right? Because I don't think people most people are going to give up their their phones or their tablets or whatever, but as you say, and as you write, we need to be paying attention to the spaces in which we are living and working and playing. So, like what do we do?
LEIDY KLOTZ: I think we can use our phone as a cue, right? If you if you find yourself looking at your screen, say, "Well, have I actually taken in the space around me?" I've got a friend who I was talking to her about the book for, and she said now she thinks about me in the morning when she wakes up, because she immediately goes to look at her phone and is like, "Oh, I should have noticed my bedroom," right?
And even it's the same bedroom that you've been in all the time, but it's grounding to kind of notice the physical space and things will have changed from the last time you noticed it, whether it's the way the light's shining through or whatever. But instead of so basically using the phone as a as a cue to notice your surroundings, I think can be really helpful.
I did it — it helped me the other day. I was in the — just the waiting room for an appointment, and I realized I looked down at my phone and then I was like, "Oh, have I taken in the space?" And then you realize that, oh, what you used to do in a waiting room was like look around and then pick up a magazine and now you're just kind of like in the same world that you're in no matter where you are. So, I think that that tip can be helpful.
MARK BRODIE: All right, we'll have to leave it there. That is Leidy Klotz, a professor at the University of Virginia and author of the book, "In a Good Place: How the Places Where We Live, Work, and Play Can Help Us Thrive." Leidy, thanks so much for the conversation, I really appreciate it.
LEIDY KLOTZ: Thank you, Mark. It was a delight being here.
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