MARK BRODIE: The percentage of kindergarteners in this country who have exemptions from getting mandatory school vaccines was up last school year — from 3.6% to 4.2%.
That means about 155,000 more students were exempt from the vaccines. In Arizona, more than 10.5% of kindergartners had an exemption, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
This is happening as the country deals with its worst measles outbreak in more than three decades; the vaccine for measles is one of those that’s generally required to go to school, as part of the MMR vaccine, which also includes mumps and rubella.
With me to talk about this is Ashley Chambers, executive director of the group Arizona Families for Vaccines. Ashley, good morning. Welcome.
ASHLEY CHAMBERS: Good morning. Thank you so much for having me.
MARK BRODIE: Do these numbers surprise you at all?
ASHLEY CHAMBERS: No. These numbers absolutely do not surprise me.
MARK BRODIE: How come?
ASHLEY CHAMBERS: I think anybody who is in America right now, if you are paying attention to anything — whether that’s the news, whether that’s social media, whether that’s conversations happening in your neighborhood, people are talking about vaccines. And some people are talking about them positively. But I think for the most part, the conversations that people do have about vaccines are negative conversations. And that’s based off of misinformation.
I think the majority of people, if you are talking about vaccines, it’s because you’re not supportive of them. The majority of people just vaccinate their kids, move on with their life and then don’t talk about it.
MARK BRODIE: So, what does it mean in Arizona? Obviously, this is not like every county, every city has the same number. But 10.5% of 5-year-olds, kindergartners, 5- and 6-year-olds going to kindergarten aren’t vaccinated against things like measles and chicken pox and whooping cough and polio.
ASHLEY CHAMBERS: Yeah, that’s huge. I mean, if you think about it — think about a birthday party that you would have with your kids. If 10% of those kiddos aren’t vaccinated and you’ve got 20 kids there, that’s two kids. That’s two kids that could potentially be spreading a disease to others that aren’t vaccinated. And that’s a big problem.
And I think the thing that we’re missing, the thing that is said a lot in this debate is, “Well, if you’re vaccinated, why do you care if other people are vaccinated?” But that is just a huge scientific literacy problem, because there are kids going through cancer treatment, newborn babies, even toddlers that aren’t fully immunized. So, when you are talking about people who are unvaccinated, you are posing a risk to those people who cannot get vaccinated or are too young to do it.
MARK BRODIE: So, what does it mean for those classrooms? I mean, as you say, there are some kids for whom it’s not possible to get vaccinated. We saw this during COVID. There were people who, for whatever reason, their immune systems would not allow them to take the vaccine. So, what does it mean? We’re dealing with a measles outbreak in the state and around the country. What’s the implication of this percentage of students who are not vaccinated?
ASHLEY CHAMBERS: I mean, I think we are sitting ducks. We are vulnerable to a resurgence of diseases that we had for all intents and purposes eradicated in this country. I think we’re really headed down a path — and quite honestly, I don’t see it changing. I don’t see it changing anytime soon because vaccines are a victim of their own success, right? The reason that parents nowadays are susceptible to misinformation is because they’re not seeing the repercussions of measles. They’re not seeing kids in wheelchairs because of paralytic polio. They’re not seeing these things. And until we start seeing a really big resurgence of these things, I don’t think parents are going to take it seriously. I just don’t.
MARK BRODIE: Do you think the fact that we are seeing the number of cases of measles we’re seeing now might change that?
ASHLEY CHAMBERS: I honestly don’t know. I don’t know if people hearing a story about a friend of a friend who got measles is going to change their mind. I think the social media culture behind the anti-vaccine community is so strong. I have seen some posts that would blow your mind.
And I think it’s really scary for parents who have this brand new baby or this toddler and they see them as so vulnerable. You worked so hard to create this life, and it’s beautiful. And then your pediatrician is talking to you about things that you may not understand, and they have a very short window of time to talk to you about it with that visit, right? They’re talking about these different types of vaccines that are important to protect this precious angel against things you have never seen.
Yet, you go home and you are inundated in maybe your mom chats or on your Facebook feed about scary things that have happened to this precious angel that they got from a vaccine. And whether or not it’s true, it’s in your brain, right? So that’s what you’re thinking about. So when you think about the amount of time that this misinformation has to capture you versus the amount of time that your pediatrician has to spend with you in that brief period of time of your appointment, I think it’s no wonder that we are seeing these vaccine rates drop like this.
MARK BRODIE: Are we seeing different reasons for parents getting exemptions from their kids from these vaccines?
ASHLEY CHAMBERS: Yeah, I mean, in Arizona, we have a couple different ways that you can get exemptions. The first one is a medical exemption. So for those kiddos that for whatever reason, maybe their immune system, has gone through cancer treatment or they have an autoimmune disease, but they cannot get a vaccine, so they get a medical exemption. That is less than 1%. That is a tiny percent.
MARK BRODIE: And I would assume you’re OK with that kind of exemption, yeah?
ASHLEY CHAMBERS: Of course, yeah. And I don’t have a blanket policy about exemptions, period. I wouldn’t come on here and say I have a blanket policy about exemptions. What I would say is that the majority of parents who are getting exemptions are getting it based off of misinformation. They’re not getting it for a religious reason — because the majority of religions, almost all major religions, promote vaccination. And they promote it because they know that it protects community. and it protects individuals. I would say the majority of it is personal beliefs based off of misinformation about the dangers of vaccines.
And I will say this, we have had anecdotal data about parents who say that they will not vaccinate their kids just because they know that herd immunity is so high. But — but once they have started to see herd immunity waning a little bit and they’re starting to see reports of measles, they have then decided to make the choice to then vaccinate their kiddos. ... So it’s interesting, but I don’t think that that is a large percentage of parents. And again, that’s anecdotal data. We don’t have studies that ask parents, “Why did you now choose to vaccinate your kiddos after all this time?” And I think that would be a great study to do. So if any researchers are listening.
MARK BRODIE: All right, so Ashley, before we let you go, you sound pretty pessimistic about these numbers changing. At the same time though, it is your job to try to make that happen. So, what can people like you, groups like yours, do to try to reverse this?
ASHLEY CHAMBERS: Yeah, so my organization, Arizona Families for Vaccines, we want policy that increases access and confidence in vaccines. So we do not talk to individuals about whether or not they should vaccinate their kiddos. That’s for the conversation between your pediatrician and the parent. But what we want and what we call on our elected leaders to do is to start putting policies and messaging in place that encourages parents to vaccinate their kiddos, and it encourages parents to learn more about vaccines.
And they need to come together with a solution about how to fight misinformation. Just posting stuff on social media is not enough.
And one thing I would say, I would ask our Arizona legislators to stop putting forth bills that are based off of vaccine misinformation. For better or for worse, these people are looked at as leaders in their community, and when year after year we have lawmakers putting forth bills based off of misinformation, spreading misinformation about vaccines, that is particularly harmful.
MARK BRODIE: All right, we’ll have to leave it there. That is Ashley Chambers, executive director of the group Arizona Families for Vaccines. Ashley, thank you.
ASHLEY CHAMBERS: Thank you.
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