Despite Trump's executive order, conservationists say Mexican gray wolves still need help

President Donald Trump has signed an executive order that could lead to Mexican gray wolves being removed from the endangered species list.

The order instructs the Interior secretary to decide within 90 days if the species has recovered enough to be delisted.

The wolves were reintroduced to Arizona and New Mexico in the late 1990s and have been controversial. Ranchers say the wolves kill their cattle and have applauded the executive order. Conservationists, meanwhile, argue there are only a little more than 300 Mexican gray wolves, and they continue to need protection.

Cyndi Tuell is the Arizona/New Mexico director of Western Watersheds Project, a nonprofit environmental conservation group. She joined The Show to talk about the decision.

Full conversation

MARK BRODIE: Cyndi, good morning.

CYNDI TUELL: Morning, Mark. Thanks for having me on today.

MARK BRODIE: Thanks for being here. So your group is not in favor of this. Why do you think the wolves continue to need federal protection?

CYNDI TUELL: Well, if you look at the facts on the ground, there’s over 2 million cows in the area where the Mexican gray wolves live, and there’s only just over 300 wolves. So there’s far more livestock than wolves, and the wolves are actually having a very, very small impact on the cow population in Arizona and New Mexico, and a very, very small impact on the livestock industry in New Mexico. No one denies that cows can be eaten by wolves on occasion, but most of the time that problem can be addressed by better management from livestock operators.

MARK BRODIE: Is there a number in mind that you have for how many wolves there should be before you say, “OK, this species is good, we can maybe take them off the list”?

CYNDI TUELL: Yeah, I mean we definitely think there should be a lot more wolves on the ground before consideration to take the wolves off the endangered species list. And also the Fish and Wildlife Service, which is part of the federal government, has identified some numbers. We think those numbers are too low, but what they are is that the U.S. population of Mexican gray wolves should average about 320 wolves or more over a four-year period.

And then also the genetic diversity of the wolf population needs to be sufficient to make sure that they can survive over the long term. And again, we think that number’s too low. We are fighting with the federal government about that number, but that’s what the government says right now. And currently, with 317 documented wolves in the wild, we’re not at that number, and we certainly haven’t been at that number for the last four years.

MARK BRODIE: Where do we stand in terms of that genetic diversity that would allow the wolves to be able to survive on their own?

CYNDI TUELL: I’m sorry, I missed the first part of your question.

MARK BRODIE: I was asking where we are in terms of the genetic diversity you were talking about to allow the species to really be OK on its own.

CYNDI TUELL: So the genetic diversity is a concern for us. I don’t have the specific data on that information, but remember that we started with just seven founding wolves for this entire population. Wolves were wiped off the map by the federal government at the behest of the livestock industry, and the recovery program resulted in reintroducing those wolves back on the ground in 1998. So from those seven wolves, we have some wolves in captivity, some on the ground, and we need all seven of those wolves’ genetic diversity represented in both of those populations, the wild and the captive population.

Because the federal government has taken Mexican gray wolves and either removed them and put them back in captivity or killed them because of livestock operators’ requests, that has reduced some of the most important genetics out in the wild. So because the federal government is already doing what the ranchers are asking them to do, which is kill or remove wolves from the wild, the genetic diversity is lower.

If we let the wild wolves do what they do, which is repopulate on their own, stop removing them and stop killing them when they do things like eat the animals that are on the land, the genetic diversity will improve. We also need to start having Mexican gray wolf families released from captivity into the wild, get those genes that are stuck in captivity and put them on the land and let those wolves reproduce naturally. That would be the best solution.

MARK BRODIE: What do you think the end result will be if the Interior secretary decides in a few months that the wolves can and should be delisted?

CYNDI TUELL: Well, I thought it was really interesting that President Trump was willing to show how little he knew about what his own government is doing by issuing this executive order. You know, Fish and Wildlife Service and the Arizona Game and Fish Department both put out statements and letters in July of this year saying that they were going to start looking at whether or not the wolf warranted delisting or downlisting.

So this process was already started, and what President Trump’s executive order did was kind of meaningless. I think it was just political theater. So I think as the process moves forward, the science and the data are going to show that the Mexican gray wolf is not even close to being ready to be downlisted or delisted. The numbers on the ground and the genetics just don’t support a change in the level of protection they need.

MARK BRODIE: All right, well we’ll have to leave it there. That is Cyndi Tuell, the Arizona-New Mexico director of Western Watersheds Project, a nonprofit environmental conservation group. Cyndi, thanks so much.

CYNDI TUELL: Thank you very much, Mark.